Some draw questions!

[TheShootah]

Ok, I had some cash on pokerroom so I decided to partake in the draw madness. I actually really love this game, and consider myself to be somewhat competent, especially in the 5 handed no opening qualifier version. Here is the crap that I know, and my opening requirements:

1. Don't play shorts
2. Don't play straight draws or flush draws. (I may in the blinds)
3. Raise or fold almost all the time coming in, etc...

I need to reread Weisenbergs (sp) draw articles. Opening requirements...

UTG - Kings or Better
UTG+1 - Jacks or Better
Button - Tens or Better
Small Blind - Eights and above I raise, smaller pairs I limp, along with good Ace highs like AK-AT

My Questions: What's the probalities of improving when you draw three to a pair, two to a pair and a kicker, 2 to trips, 1 to trips, 1 to an OESD, 1 to a flush draw, etc....

Also, how often do you draw one to trips. I almost always draw two when in multiway pots, but sometimes if I have high trips I will just draw one to someone drawing two or three. Also, depending on what the other guy draws to, what do you value bet on the next round.

How do you handle a bad two pair before the draw. Obviously if I was first in I raise, but what about after limpers?

Do you ever call with unimproved high pairs? Although I guess this one has to be player independent. I realize this is a ridiculous amount of questions, etc..so any help on any would be appreciated...thanks... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[TheShootah]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I had some cash on pokerroom so I decided to partake in the draw madness. I actually really love this game, and consider myself to be somewhat competent, especially in the 5 handed no opening qualifier version. Here is the crap that I know, and my opening requirements:

1. Don't play shorts
2. Don't play straight draws or flush draws. (I may in the blinds)
3. Raise or fold almost all the time coming in, etc...

I need to reread Weisenbergs (sp) draw articles. Opening requirements...

UTG - Kings or Better
UTG+1 - Jacks or Better
Button - Tens or Better
Small Blind - Eights and above I raise, smaller pairs I limp, along with good Ace highs like AK-AT

My Questions: What's the probalities of improving when you draw three to a pair, two to a pair and a kicker, 2 to trips, 1 to trips, 1 to an OESD, 1 to a flush draw, etc....

Also, how often do you draw one to trips. I almost always draw two when in multiway pots, but sometimes if I have high trips I will just draw one to someone drawing two or three. Also, depending on what the other guy draws to, what do you value bet on the next round.

How do you handle a bad two pair before the draw. Obviously if I was first in I raise, but what about after limpers?

Do you ever call with unimproved high pairs? Although I guess this one has to be player independent. I realize this is a ridiculous amount of questions, etc..so any help on any would be appreciated...thanks... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

EDIT: After a 3.5 hour session at 1/2, up 65$, I love this game. Come say hi to TonyRotella (that's me! /images/graemlins/grin.gif)

[Dan Rutter]

Check out Super System for Caro's work on the probablities of draw. If you do not have a copy go to his website www.poker1.com (http://www.poker1.com) they are all there. Click the tab Mike Caro University near the top of the screen, then click the odds tab on the left of the screen.

[JohnnyPhoenix]

Hey Shooter:

Can you post the link on "Weisenbergs (sp) draw articles"?

I like 5 card draw myself. Glad to see that PokerRoom has this game.

Johnny

[TheShootah]

Those odds have the joker in them though don't they? Also, for Weisenbergs articles, go to cardplayer.com, click on the magazine tab, click on writers, then go to the last page. He is the funny lookin guy in the hat. Some are on lowball, but he has a couple very good articles, one of which is a complete online draw strategy. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[DeadMoneyOC]

I have basically all the same questions as you shootah. I played my first session tonight and played for about an hour or so.

[ QUOTE ]
1. Don't play shorts
2. Don't play straight draws or flush draws. (I may in the blinds)
3. Raise or fold almost all the time coming in, etc...


[/ QUOTE ]

What are 'Shorts'? You never play straight or flush draws?

[ QUOTE ]
UTG - Kings or Better
UTG+1 - Jacks or Better
Button - Tens or Better
Small Blind - Eights and above I raise, smaller pairs I limp, along with good Ace highs like AK-AT


[/ QUOTE ]

Seems good to me. What do you limp with though? What do you defend in the blinds with?

[ QUOTE ]
My Questions: What's the probalities of improving when you draw three to a pair, two to a pair and a kicker, 2 to trips, 1 to trips, 1 to an OESD, 1 to a flush draw, etc....


[/ QUOTE ]

....I also would like to know this

[ QUOTE ]
Also, how often do you draw one to trips. I almost always draw two when in multiway pots, but sometimes if I have high trips I will just draw one to someone drawing two or three. Also, depending on what the other guy draws to, what do you value bet on the next round.


[/ QUOTE ]

I have been mixing it up and going with my gut. One interesting situation though that I have a question about. I opened UTG+1 with QQQ84, button three bets, SB caps. He stands pat. So do I have a better percentage to fill up if I draw one card or two?

[ QUOTE ]
How do you handle a bad two pair before the draw. Obviously if I was first in I raise, but what about after limpers?


[/ QUOTE ]

I have been playing pretty aggresive if no one has showed strength. Raising limpers and such. If someone raises I have been just calling down if I dont fill up, with or with out position.

[ QUOTE ]
Do you ever call with unimproved high pairs?

[/ QUOTE ]

I did a lot tonight...and I was getting burned.

In my session I was up 25$ but I was getting awesome cards. I missed a ton of value bets where I think I would have been paid. I called a ton of times when I was obviously beat also. I have tons of room to improve. This was my first ever session after all! The play of the other players was so very straight forward that I think that reading the strength of your opponent is going to become VERY easy. Im tired, going to sleep...probably play tommorow if I dont play live. If I do play Ill post some hands. I am OHCE. I havent played on PR for awhile but I want to start playing there again to take advantage of the new player points bonus. I am pretty sure it is pretty much like 20% rake back. Very cool either way. Im getting bored at PS anyways. Time to go home ot PR...alright, adios

One cool thing I did today that also thought I was share. This is probably a standard play for people who actually know how to play this game but I opened on the button with 66428, BB called. He drew three and I decided to stand pat. I took the pot down with almost no effort. It is pretty obvious you cant over use this play but it was really the only time when I got tricky so it seemed cool at the time...probably standard stuff though...gl

[MarkGritter]

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, how often do you draw one to trips. I almost always draw two when in multiway pots, but sometimes if I have high trips I will just draw one to someone drawing two or three. Also, depending on what the other guy draws to, what do you value bet on the next round.


[/ QUOTE ]

I have been mixing it up and going with my gut. One interesting situation though that I have a question about. I opened UTG+1 with QQQ84, button three bets, SB caps. He stands pat. So do I have a better percentage to fill up if I draw one card or two?


[/ QUOTE ]

You have a better chance of filling up (or getting quads) if you draw two. You should false-card by drawing one only for purposes of deception. (And you certainly shouldn't do it all the time.)

To see why this is the case, look at the probabilities. If you draw one there are only 3 cards out of 47 that can help you (6.4%). If you draw two, then there are 115 combinations out of 1081 that help you (10.6%):

Qx: 46 cobminations
pairs: 11 with 6 ways, 1 with 3 ways = 69 combinations

I'm a draw newbie, can't really help with the other questions.

[TheShootah]

Shorts are small pairs....obviously they don't improve that much to be profitable. I don't limp all that much at all. Basically, I only limp when I want to be the hand but raising probably isn't all that good. Like if there are 2-3 limpers and I have JJ or QQ in the blinds. I don't really wanna raise and then be out of position after the draw. I limp with some smaller pairs in the SB also if it's been limped around. Basically I decided that raising or folding is a much better strategy for this game.

I don't play flush draws unless they are straight flush draws or I am in the blinds. Basically, I don't think they improve enough to make them profitable in that many situations. Straight draws(open ended) improve 1 to 4.88, and flush draws 1 to 4. I don't really think you ever have the odds. Also, when you draw one and then bet on the next round, most will give you credit and fold, cutting down your implied odds quite badly. At some tables I will play flush draws on the button after both people limp, because the blinds almost always play. I also decided that it's better to have an ace, because you may get lucky, pair, and take down a pot.

I actually give up alot of blinds, because in normal cases, you are only getting 3.5 to 1 on your call. The reason is that the games I have played in are normally pretty loose passive, so a raise generally means two pair or better. (not always, but it's reasonable). I normally defend with 10's and up.

I think I have gotten a bit of the tricky stuff out of the way with two pair. I always come in raising two pair, and I will three bet with the better two pair, normally Jacks up or better, since they are the median hands. After the draw I would normally bet the good ones and check and call the bad ones.

I have also learned that basically, unless you improve, you shouldn't be calling bets. There are certain exceptions and I think it really pays to watch your players. I have seen more than one guy calling with basically any one card draw, gutshots and all, high cards, etc...and betting everytime if checked to. So I was always checking to him, either calling or check raising.

You improve more when you draw two. I draw one sometimes against people that raise or reraise me, and then draw one. My basic idea is to project two small pair, and then check raise after the draw.

I have used the raise and stand pat idea also, but you really, really, have to be careful. Only do it on the players that will fold if they don't improve, and I only really use it about once per table.

I have actually logged some awesome sessions on pokerroom so far. I turned the free 20$ I got from bluff magazine into 160 so far, in about one hold em session to get me up to 40, and then in two draw sessions.

Oh, and if you have SS1, the probabilities of improving are in there for a 52 card deck. I am making a draw cheat sheet with all the plays I make, the charts, opening requirements, etc...

Also, I just have to share this: I got dealt pat quad aces today. I am proud to say that it's 4,164 to 1, and that I flipped my lid. /images/graemlins/grin.gif Good luck to you. We need a hand converter for pokerroom draw so we can start to post some reasonable looking hands here.

We should really get this forum to work up some good draw strategy stuff. I was thinking that if a better game with more skilled opponents starts to run, we should get some game theory ideas going. It seems like it would be more profitable to be betting unimproved hands sometimes so observant opponents (not the donks currently playing) can't fold everytime with confidence. Also, if you are clearly on a flush draw or a straight draw, you should probably be bluffing some then also. I dunno. Night guys...btw, look for me, TonyRotella, on PR, and then get your own damn table. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Notorious G.O.B.]

[ QUOTE ]
I have basically all the same questions as you shootah. I played my first session tonight and played for about an hour or so.

'What are 'Shorts'? You never play straight or flush draws?'

Shorts are small pairs. Don't play draws except in blinds. Maybe Straight flush draw against 2 limpers on button, or with or high straight flush draw as a blind steal.

'Seems good to me. What do you limp with though? What do you defend in the blinds with?'

Pretty much don't limp, except in SB. I've seen good players limp before, but I don't ever.

[ QUOTE ]
My Questions: What's the probalities of improving when you draw three to a pair, two to a pair and a kicker, 2 to trips, 1 to trips, 1 to an OESD, 1 to a flush draw, etc....


[/ QUOTE ]

Pair: about 3 to 1, draw three, almost always.
Trips: Around 10 to 1
OESD: about 4 to 1
flush draw: about 4 to 1
two pair: 11 to one

[ QUOTE ]
Also, how often do you draw one to trips. I almost always draw two when in multiway pots, but sometimes if I have high trips I will just draw one to someone drawing two or three. Also, depending on what the other guy draws to, what do you value bet on the next round.


[/ QUOTE ]

I usually draw one to trips, ditching the bigger kicker. I'm more inclined to draw two from steal position, although I mostly draw 1. Draw two if you believe you're behind.

'I have been mixing it up and going with my gut. One interesting situation though that I have a question about. I opened UTG+1 with QQQ84, button three bets, SB caps. He stands pat. So do I have a better percentage to fill up if I draw one card or two?'

Draw 2.


[ QUOTE ]
How do you handle a bad two pair before the draw. Obviously if I was first in I raise, but what about after limpers?


[/ QUOTE ]

Limpers plural? Probably fold. Depends how bad the two pair, but I'm not fond of your equity in this spot, especially if they'll limp with hands better than one pair.


[ QUOTE ]
Do you ever call with unimproved high pairs?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes, when you suspect a steal. AA looks pretty good when it folds to the small blind and he leads into you after the draw. Also, watch people, and see how much they bluff, etc.


One cool thing I did today that also thought I was share. This is probably a standard play for people who actually know how to play this game but I opened on the button with 66428, BB called. He drew three and I decided to stand pat. I took the pot down with almost no effort. It is pretty obvious you cant over use this play but it was really the only time when I got tricky so it seemed cool at the time...probably standard stuff though...gl

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I see it done now and again. I like it better with two pair, because you can bet postdraw and get called by one pair, because they think you're stealing. I suppose it's a good way of getting a cheap showdown with a marginal hand, but I think you're usually give too much away, since you've got a fairly good chance to improve one pair. With two pair, you don't have that.

[JohnnyPhoenix]

I think a hand converter for PR is a good idea. Also let me refer a book on draw. "THE EDUCATION of a POKER PLAYER". Great book on old school poker.

One other thing. Are there any draw poker in Vegas? I'm heading there next week.

Johnny

[DeadMoneyOC]

It just happened, but only for an instant. It was also a complete accident.

I was sitting there minding my own business at a very good 1-2 5-card draw table on PR. Then felicialee sits in, soon there after TheShootah(TonyRotella) sits in. Felicia hit-n-run us for an entire 3 dollars and TonyRotella left soon there after. It was sweet!!! lol

Edit: I am running so good on PR. I love it!

[DOMIT]

[ QUOTE ]
It just happened, but only for an instant. It was also a complete accident.

I was sitting there minding my own business at a very good 1-2 5-card draw table on PR. Then felicialee sits in, soon there after TheShootah(TonyRotella) sits in. Felicia hit-n-run us for an entire 3 dollars and TonyRotella left soon there after. It was sweet!!! lol

Edit: I am running so good on PR. I love it!

[/ QUOTE ]

That was me /images/graemlins/grin.gif I was playing around w/ the last <$1 that I had in Poker Room that I wasn't able to cash out (full dollar amounts only sir!), and have ground it up to over 10$ on the HE tables.. the last session I noticed that they were now playing Draw.. sweet!!

I quickly deposited 100$ and play inbetween other things during the day /images/graemlins/tongue.gif So, yes, you'll see me come in, play for 5-10 mins and leave. That's just me /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[FeliciaLee]

That was Glenn. I don't even play Draw. He is the draw master. Even Mason gasped when I told him what Glenn's CV was in Draw, lol.

H&R is almost mandatory in online Draw, though. Good games are just too rare, and break quickly. Almost like the 5-card Stud at Paradise or the Crazy Pineapple 8 on UB.

Felicia /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[DOMIT]

[ QUOTE ]
Those odds have the joker in them though don't they? Also, for Weisenbergs articles, go to cardplayer.com, click on the magazine tab, click on writers, then go to the last page. He is the funny lookin guy in the hat. Some are on lowball, but he has a couple very good articles, one of which is a complete online draw strategy. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

keep looking.. Caro has stats for BOTH 52 and 53 card decks in SS.

[TheShootah]

All the games on PR are great. I am up 250$! I did end up finding the 52 card stats after I posted that though! NUTS! I am now a confirmed draw addict. I am gonna try to work out some other mathematical stuff also.

[Tilt]

You are right, these pr games are easy. This cant last, though. A bot could do this more easily than in any other form of poker. Its totally thoughtless.

[TheShootah]

It really is, if you sit there and wait for decent pairs or better, and then only call if you improve after the draw, you win a good sum of cash. Even more if you can make and pick off the occasional bluff.