i really want to fold

[joker122]

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, Button folds.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero calls.

River: (9.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero ?

[marsvolta619]

You may want to, but can you?(did I just blow your mind?)

[krishanleong]

Folding is fine. In my opinion when you called the turn you were hoping he was using a free river play with JJ-TT or you would hit your flush. Neither happened as far as I can tell. Fold.

Krishan

[pokahjokah]

I call the river because you called his turn bet. I think you have to go to showdown here even if you missed your flush.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
I call the river because you called his turn bet. I think you have to go to showdown here even if you missed your flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

This rationalization is complete [censored].

Krishan

[I Play 2 Ski]

[ QUOTE ]
I call the river because you called his turn bet. I think you have to go to showdown here even if you missed your flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

huh?

[IGMorton]

I'm not sure i understand the fold. he has to have a queen to be winning. sure he may. and yes, his turn play seemed like he wasn't on a draw. but, if you are getting 10.5:1, a river call is reasonable even if you think he's doesn't have a queen only 10% of the time. he could have a seven, or be on a stone cold bluff.

EV= .1 x 10.5 - .9 x 1.0 = .15

The simple fact that sometimes you have to call down to prevent someone from taking cheap shots at you on future hands makes me wanna call unless i'm 95% sure he has a queen.

[etizzle]

he could also have AK-K9

[DMBFan23]

dont worry he doesnt know you're folding a K

[Spaded]

That's one of my pet peeves. I have two pair, but one of the pairs is on the board, negating my otherwise lucky hit. Irks me!

[sthief09]

what are you doing preflop man?


pretty routine fold on the river btw

[Stack]

[ QUOTE ]
what are you doing preflop man?

[/ QUOTE ]

Should he raise, or fold?

[J.R.]

he didn't tell us enough to let us know, but we know he shouldn't have done what he did

[Catt]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what are you doing preflop man?

[/ QUOTE ]

Should he raise, or fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

Calling in the SB is pretty bad -- you welcome BB into the hand with open arms, offering him 5:1 to see a flop. IMHO, you should be three-betting or folding in the vast, vast majority of apparent steal raises when you're in the SB with only the raiser in before you. I'd be three-betting here before I'd fold (or call).

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
he didn't tell us enough to let us know, but we know he shouldn't have done what he did

[/ QUOTE ]

SThief will want to 3-bet. I fold.

Krishan

[Stack]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what are you doing preflop man?

[/ QUOTE ]

Should he raise, or fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

Calling in the SB is pretty bad -- you welcome BB into the hand with open arms, offering him 5:1 to see a flop. IMHO, you should be three-betting or folding in the vast, vast majority of apparent steal raises when you're in the SB with only the raiser in before you. I'd be three-betting here before I'd fold (or call).

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks Catt and J.R.

I just read in Yao's book that calling is wrong in the sb agaist a steal, but I suck in the blinds and I have difficulty deciding if I should raise or fold. I guess the more agressive the stealer is, and the more I should be apt to 3bet.

OP: Thread back to you, sorry for the hijack.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]

SThief will want to 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]


sthief plays more hands than most with position, not without

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

SThief will want to 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]


sthief plays more hands than most with position, not without

[/ QUOTE ]

Yay,

Krishan

[joker122]

i don't really care about preflop. if it's a mistake it's a minor one.

i called the river was shown KcQc and HHWG.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure i understand the fold. he has to have a queen to be winning. sure he may. and yes, his turn play seemed like he wasn't on a draw. but, if you are getting 10.5:1, a river call is reasonable even if you think he's doesn't have a queen only 10% of the time. he could have a seven, or be on a stone cold bluff.

EV= .1 x 10.5 - .9 x 1.0 = .15

The simple fact that sometimes you have to call down to prevent someone from taking cheap shots at you on future hands makes me wanna call unless i'm 95% sure he has a queen.

[/ QUOTE ]

his play is just so indicative of a queen though. calling 2 cold on the flop and then raising a blank turn? there aren't many players who play this way without a queen. he could always have a better king, too. i know i only have to be good 1 in 10 but i don't know if i am.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

SThief will want to 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]


sthief plays more hands than most with position, not without

[/ QUOTE ]

So you fold too? That makes me happy. I 3-bet KJs+ here and maybe KTs+ if I have a read that Button gives up easily. Otherwise I'm folding generally. I don't defend my SB much though.

[joker122]

you fold KTs and K9s to a button open raise in a 5 handed game? seems real weak to me.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
you fold KTs and K9s to a button open raise in a 5 handed game? seems real weak to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

It depends on the Button and the BB, but yeah, I fold K9s generally. KTs is very opponent-specific. I don't really get coldcalling here at all. I will 3-bet KTs and K9s and K8s if I have Button pegged as the sort who respects my 3-bets, but I'll fold if he's tricky or good with position or generally tenacious even when he doesn't hit a flop.

Rob

[DMBFan23]

not from the BB obviously, but theres something about that smaller SB at 5/10 and also having to worry about the BB and yeah...

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]

i don't really care about preflop. if it's a mistake it's a minor one.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're routinely coolcalling in the SB rather than 3-betting in order to defend, it's larger than a minor error.

In tihs situation, you have about 45% equity against a typical stealraiser's range of opening hands here (55+,A2s+,K3s+,Q6s+,J7s+,T7s+,97s+,87s,A4o+,K8o+,Q 9o+,J9o+,T9o). If you mix in a BB who will call with a wide range of hands getting 5:1, then your equity has dropped to around 30%, and you're going to have less FE in general when you miss flops, which you will often.

I'd say coldcalling is actually a fairly large error here.

Rob

[MAxx]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd say coldcalling is actually a fairly large error here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hurrrrrd that. Damn Rob, don't hurt em.

Nice post bro.

[ALL1N]

FWIW, I frequently coldcall K8s and other hands here. I do not believe it to be an error at all, and I'm quite happy with my SB stats in aggressive games.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, I frequently coldcall K8s and other hands here. I do not believe it to be an error at all, and I'm quite happy with my SB stats in aggressive games.

[/ QUOTE ]

Care to explain why? I've already elaborated why I hate coldcalling (FE goes down, consequently it's more important to hit flops), you're going to be 3-ways the vast majority of the time OOP against everyone, and your hand generally isn't all that hot equity-wise, especially 3-ways.

So what advantages does coldcalling confer, besides the fact that it's cheaper preflop?

Rob

[MAxx]

Not to mention the 5/10 SB structure.

[ALL1N]

IMO, having the lead headsup against an aggressive button is not that valuable with mediocre hands. We may take down more pots, but we'll also lose lots trying to.

The showdown strength of king high out of position against an aggressive player is close to worthless if you have the lead going into the flop (feel like calling a turn raise and river with king-high?), so we've got a hand that can make good pairs and flushes. I prefer to play it 3-way, but if the BB folds I'm happy to make up for the lost fold equity by playing some flops that don't appear to "fit."

If the player is passive postflop then it's unlikely we'll be playing hands as weak as K8s here in the first place, but if a passive player is opening liberally on the button, then 3-bet by all means.

[ALL1N]

[ QUOTE ]
Not to mention the 5/10 SB structure.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh.

All I have said neglects to take into account the blind structure of 5/10, but it shouldn't make a huge difference.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
If you're routinely coolcalling in the SB rather than 3-betting in order to defend, it's larger than a minor error.

[/ QUOTE ]

it's not routine, it's with marginal spots such as this one. i don't feel like "claiming ownership" of this pot with K8s ( 3betting preflop, firing another 1.5BB on the flop and turn etc.)

on the other hand, i am the better postflop player and K8s is too strong to fold anyway, so i'm calling.

i used to be obsessed with the "fit or fold" mentality 2+2 had instilled in me, but as ALL1N said, cold calling is sometimes correct.

preflop, we have 3 options in the SB after a button steal. will you admit that it's at least sometimes correct to use the option of calling? if so, what hands would you call with. hands like K8s came to mind for me.

[ QUOTE ]
and you're going to have less FE in general when you miss flops, which you will often.


[/ QUOTE ]

i actually think i don't give up much post-flop FE by coldcalling rather than 3betting. do you ever get the feeling they call you down more when they suspect a resteal?

[J.R.]

[ QUOTE ]
if so, what hands would you call with. hands like K8s came to mind for me.


[/ QUOTE ]

I always viewed it more as situation where the other players could dictate a call as opposed to my hand. but i still think given the blind structure and more pronounced effect of the rake at 5-10 that a call is far less often correct than at 10-20

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if so, what hands would you call with. hands like K8s came to mind for me.


[/ QUOTE ]

I always viewed it more as situation where the other players could dictate a call as opposed to my hand. but i still think given the blind structure and more pronounced effect of the rake at 5-10 that a call is far less often correct than at 10-20

[/ QUOTE ]


also, I'll occasionally cold call, but that's only if I have a read on someone. without a read, I don't think any amount of postflop skill can make up for cold calling with K8s because you have no clue what you're up against. you'll end up overplaying your weak hands or underplaying your strong ones.

I agree that this is not a small mistake in principle.

[Padawan Learner]

sthief:

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think any amount of postflop skill can make up for cold calling with K8s because you have no clue what you're up against.

[/ QUOTE ]

So its the info gained by the 3-bet that makes it the superior play?

[Catt]

[ QUOTE ]
preflop, we have 3 options in the SB after a button steal. will you admit that it's at least sometimes correct to use the option of calling? if so, what hands would you call with. hands like K8s came to mind for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Count me in the camp that I don't classify this as a small mistake -- I think it is larger error. While there may be certain situations where I would cool-call in the SB as the first in behind a possible steal raise, such situations are about reads on the players / table tempo / my image, etc. and usually are not dictated much by the cards I'm holding.

I don't think this is a "fit or fold" sort of situation, but I acknowledge that I'm arguing that it is very, very often binary -- raise or fold. The disadvantages to cool-calling just overwhelm the possible advantages, IMHO, principally that you virtually guarantee BB comes in with all but the trashiest of hands, and now you're playing from first position against two players. If a hand is worth playing, I'll gladly invest another SB pre-flop for the increased chance that I get it HU and only have to play OOP against one player.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
sthief:

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think any amount of postflop skill can make up for cold calling with K8s because you have no clue what you're up against.

[/ QUOTE ]

So its the info gained by the 3-bet that makes it the superior play?

[/ QUOTE ]


I said I fold somewhere in this thread.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
also, I'll occasionally cold call, but that's only if I have a read on someone. without a read, I don't think any amount of postflop skill can make up for cold calling with K8s because you have no clue what you're up against.


[/ QUOTE ]

so i 3bet and he caps. how many times have you been capped here by 22 or 93s or KTo. a ton.

so i 3bet and he calls. i still have no idea except that i can maybe rule out AA-QQ/AK.

raising for information (which is exactly what you're suggesting, yet calling it "3betting to see where you're at") is lame, imo.

and as far as everyone saying this is a huge mistake: it's PREFLOP.

[sthief09]

mistakes are mistakes. you should try to avoid making them rather than convincing yourself that these mistakes aren't as bad as some other mistakes so it's ok. mistakes also compound, like misplaying the river in this case. no offense but you basically got owned here on every street and it's all beause you decided to play this hand.

[joker122]

i agree. when i say "it's PREFLOP" i'm responding to you and the 4 or so others who say this is a very significant mistake. it's so silly to think about a preflop cold call in this spot to be like -3BB in EV, which is what people seem to think.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
also, I'll occasionally cold call, but that's only if I have a read on someone. without a read, I don't think any amount of postflop skill can make up for cold calling with K8s because you have no clue what you're up against.


[/ QUOTE ]

so i 3bet and he caps. how many times have you been capped here by 22 or 93s or KTo. a ton.

so i 3bet and he calls. i still have no idea except that i can maybe rule out AA-QQ/AK.



and as far as everyone saying this is a huge mistake: it's PREFLOP.

[/ QUOTE ]


and what are you talking about here? I said multiple times in this thread that I FOLD, not 3-bet, not call, but FOLD here. I said I sometimes call in these spots (though probably not with K8s) if I have a read on someone, in otherwords, if I can play it well postflop.

IF I call, I like to have a read on someone because I can play better postflop. having no read here led you to misplaying this hand


[ QUOTE ]
raising for information (which is exactly what you're suggesting, yet calling it "3betting to see where you're at") is lame, imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

you need to read again what I wrote because you completely misunderstood it, as I didn't come close to even hinting at this or anything remotely close.

[joker122]

ok you fold. i made a post-it of that and put it on my monitor. sorry about that.

but you say: "can make up for cold calling with K8s because you have no clue what you're up against." by this logic, cold calling is never correct. agreed? (since i don't think you agree with that, i assumed you meant 3betting is better than cold calling).

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
i agree. when i say "it's PREFLOP" i'm responding to you and the 4 or so others who say this is a very significant mistake. it's so silly to think about a preflop cold call in this spot to be like -3BB in EV, which is what people seem to think.

[/ QUOTE ]


because it's not just this hand. it's the others too. and preflop, in isolation, might not be as important as the 3 other streets combined, but when you flop dead because you were dominated and end up making a bad river call because of it, it's pretty obvious where the root of the problem this hand was, isn't it?

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
ok you fold. i made a post-it of that and put it on my monitor. sorry about that.

but you say: "can make up for cold calling with K8s because you have no clue what you're up against." by this logic, cold calling is never correct. agreed? (since i don't think you agree with that, i assumed you meant 3betting is better than cold calling).

[/ QUOTE ]



context... the sentence before I said I don't call unless I have a read on someone becaue otherwise I have no clue what I'm up against

I have cold called hands like 33, QJs, and K9s in these spots before

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
preflop, in isolation, might not be as important as the 3 other streets combined

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm glad we finally got through this.

[ QUOTE ]
but when you flop dead because you were dominated and end up making a bad river call because of it, it's pretty obvious where the root of the problem this hand was, isn't it?

[/ QUOTE ]

results oriented much?

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
preflop, in isolation, might not be as important as the 3 other streets combined

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm glad we finally got through this.

[ QUOTE ]
but when you flop dead because you were dominated and end up making a bad river call because of it, it's pretty obvious where the root of the problem this hand was, isn't it?

[/ QUOTE ]

results oriented much?

[/ QUOTE ]


you misplayed the river, regardless of what the results are. if you had folded preflop you wouldn't have misplayed the river.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
I have cold called hands like 33, QJs, and K9s in these spots before

[/ QUOTE ]

to know where you're at with a hand like 33 or K9s you need to have one hell of a read. although i know you did mine like 10 million hands so maybe you have that kind of resources available to you.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have cold called hands like 33, QJs, and K9s in these spots before

[/ QUOTE ]

to know where you're at with a hand like 33 or K9s you need to have one hell of a read. although i know you did mine like 10 million hands so maybe you have that kind of resources available to you.

[/ QUOTE ]


I meant know where I'm at postflop. we agree postflop is most important, so it's nice to know that over 5,000 hands this guy is stealing 44% of the time, his flop aggression is 3, but he calms down on the turn and river with aggression factors of 1.5 and .8, respectively, so you know not to pay him off on the river, but to fastplay him ont he flop because he spews there. you also know that his VPIP is 37 and his went to showdown is 57 so it's unlikely you're going to get him to fold a hand, but you also don't have to worry about scaring him.

it makes playing a hand like K8s a lot easier

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
you misplayed the river, regardless of what the results are. if you had folded preflop you wouldn't have misplayed the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm sorry but your logic is just tragic.

an analogous argument with similar flawed reasoning: Joe failed the test to graduate college. if Joe hadn't shown up for the test he wouldn't have failed. thus, Joe shouldn't have shown up for the test.

just because i might turn a potentially +EV situation into a -EV one doesn't mean i should avoid the situation.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
I meant know where I'm at postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

so did i /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you misplayed the river, regardless of what the results are. if you had folded preflop you wouldn't have misplayed the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm sorry but your logic is just tragic.

an analogous argument with similar flawed reasoning: Joe failed the test to graduate college. if Joe hadn't shown up for the test he wouldn't have failed. thus, Joe shouldn't have shown up for the test.

just because i might turn a potentially +EV situation into a -EV one doesn't mean i should avoid the situation.

[/ QUOTE ]


how's this logic:
you need to play this hand almost perfectly postflop to play it in this spot against an unknown button and BB. you mislpayed this hand, so you probably weren't qualified to be playing it.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I meant know where I'm at postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

so did i /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]


so then where in this ridiculous thread did I say anything about 3-betting for information.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
how's this logic:
you need to play this hand almost perfectly postflop to play it in this spot against an unknown button and BB. you mislpayed this hand, so you probably weren't qualified to be playing it.


[/ QUOTE ]

that logic is vaild, but the argument isn't sound, imo. meaning that i don't agree i need to have super human postflop skills to play K8s.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you misplayed the river, regardless of what the results are. if you had folded preflop you wouldn't have misplayed the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm sorry but your logic is just tragic.

an analogous argument with similar flawed reasoning: Joe failed the test to graduate college. if Joe hadn't shown up for the test he wouldn't have failed. thus, Joe shouldn't have shown up for the test.

just because i might turn a potentially +EV situation into a -EV one doesn't mean i should avoid the situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the main decision is whether or not K8s is really a hand that you need to be playing here at all. I don't think it is.

Yeah, you're the better player postflop -- but your hand is slightly worse than his range of hands for stealing, and is significantly worse when you allow the BB in 3-handed.

Why are you demanding to play it?

Hand 1: 54.9159 % 52.79% 02.13% { 55+, A2s+, K3s+, Q6s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A4o+, K8o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }
Hand 2: 45.0841 % 42.95% 02.13% { K8s }

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
how's this logic:
you need to play this hand almost perfectly postflop to play it in this spot against an unknown button and BB. you mislpayed this hand, so you probably weren't qualified to be playing it.


[/ QUOTE ]

that logic is vaild, but the argument isn't sound, imo. meaning that i don't agree i need to have super human postflop skills to play K8s.

[/ QUOTE ]


ok at least we can finally agree to disagree

[me454555]

Why fold on the river? Why not just toss it on the turn? If he's got a better K, we are drawing to 5 outs at best (1 K and 4 As) for a split pot and the pot isn't big enough to call on the turn. If he's got a Q we're drawing pretty slim too.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
Why fold on the river? Why not just toss it on the turn? If he's got a better K, we are drawing to 5 outs at best (1 K and 4 As) for a split pot and the pot isn't big enough to call on the turn. If he's got a Q we're drawing pretty slim too.

[/ QUOTE ]


flush draw

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Why fold on the river? Why not just toss it on the turn? If he's got a better K, we are drawing to 5 outs at best (1 K and 4 As) for a split pot and the pot isn't big enough to call on the turn. If he's got a Q we're drawing pretty slim too.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm guessing you missed the flush draw?

[Catt]

[ QUOTE ]
i agree. when i say "it's PREFLOP" i'm responding to you and the 4 or so others who say this is a very significant mistake. it's so silly to think about a preflop cold call in this spot to be like -3BB in EV, which is what people seem to think.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey joker122, I hope you don't think I am ragging on you (or others are) for this call pre-flop. And no, I do not think it is a 3 BB mistake. But I do think this is a habit you want to break. If you're coolcalling K8s in the SB as first in after a possible steal raise, my guess is (only a guess) that you coolcall other hands in the SB. I'm saying that this is a significant mistake -- not because it costs you 3 BBs each time, but because it costs you 0.XX BBs, and it seems to me that it might happen with enough frequency to really add up over many hands. The nature of this mistake is similar to Ed Miller's old "My biggest leak is . . ." thread which I'm sure you've seen -- small mistakes, when the opportunity to make them happens often, are much more dangerous to your long-term earn than the less frequent mistake that costs more in terms of BB per incident.

I completely agree that post-flop play is where the money is -- but that presumes a solid approach to pre-flop play, and I really feel that cool-calling a steal raise first in in the SB is a significant error -- it costs you a small amount but it may occur frequently. I'm sorry you got riled up when your thread was largely hijacked by all this focus on pre-flop play, but I wouldn't continue to harp on it if I didn't think it was an important enough point to keep harping.

[me454555]

Oops, my bad /images/graemlins/blush.gif. Yeah check fold the river

[me454555]

Yup, thats exactly what I missed. Lectures are so boring but they can distract you from the task at hand.

[joker122]

i don't take offense to your attempts to drill this into me but i appreciate your post nonetheless.