HU call.. thoughts??

[raptor517]

***** Hand History for Game 2247820863 *****
NL Hold'em $200 Buy-in + $15 Entry Fee Trny:13322156 Level:7 Blinds(150/300) - Wednesday, June 22, 20:25:19 EDT 2005
Table Table 11249 (Real Money)
Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 2
Seat 3: Lip_Balm ( $5810 )
Seat 10: packmadam ( $4190 )
Trny:13322156 Level:7
Blinds(150/300)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Lip_Balm [ 4c 5s ]
packmadam raises [450].
Lip_Balm calls [300].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Jh, 3s, 5c ]
Lip_Balm checks.
packmadam is all-In [3590]
Lip_Balm calls [3590].

[Luminous Mist]

I assume you're planning on calling or jamming allin given the way you've played this hand...

So, call....

Luminous

[Freudian]

I voted call. I do that because I have beeeeeg cojones.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
I assume you're planning on calling or jamming allin given the way you've played this hand...

So, call....

Luminous

[/ QUOTE ]

dont play it the way i played it, play it the way YOU would. i like to see a lot of flops when the blinds are relatively low heads up. its fun. either that or im just an idiot. holla

[Luminous Mist]

[ QUOTE ]

dont play it the way i played it, play it the way YOU would.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would fold preflop. I play the $11s right now. I'd be waiting to do the raising or at least have a hand with more value. I'm not in any rush to get my chips in really unless I see a particularly good spot.

Now, if my opponent was savvy enough to make this raise like almost all the time and loved to make continuation bets...then sure, I'll call and check/pop-him-a-new-one on that flop.

Luminous

[gumpzilla]

Kinda hard to give a real answer without any kind of reading material here. Frequently I'll call, but the 4x pot overbet seems likely to be an actual hand not infrequently.

[Bigwig]

I like the call. The only thing I'm not sure of is your preflop call. 45o is pretty lousy and unlike at a larger table, you're out of position. Not that it usually matters a ton on Party heads up. But the blinds are only 150/300 and there is room to maneuver postflop.

But I like the call. It's highly unlikely he's got a J. I'd only be worried about a mid pp. But so much there, either.

I'm thinking AK or AQ.

[adanthar]

I hope you were planning on pushing when he bet 800...other than that, I like.

[SlackerMcFly]

Your check on the flop is horrible IMHO. This was your only chance to represent a J or Overpairs. Letting him take the initiative into the turn/river with his 88, 99, or TT is not something I would do.

Then again, I fold this on his t450 raise pre-flop, then take his BB next hand with any hand better than 45o. The blinds are too small to risk it all with these rags.....

All part of my Slacker education, can't wait to see the results and your reasoning for calling all-in.

holla and all that stuff - SlackerWimpySlacker

[freemoney]

i think this is a pretty easy call.

[Luminous Mist]

The whole point he checks the flop is so his opponent commits more chips when he generally will have missed the flop (yet be betting b/c he bet preflop). It's a good line vs. an aggro opponent (which HU would = good opponent). This opponent did something sorta weird by just pushing the pot on the flop....which is quite strange. This, to me, represents basically any hand he could have raised with preflop, so I like the call at that point as Raptor over the long run should be quite a bit ahead here.

Now, the problem with calling preflop is....well....who knows if his opponent will pay off the baby flop that must come for Raptor to hit.

Luminous

[Gramps]

Completely prior hands pattern/read dependent. If he's pushed the flop at least once after this sequence before (he mini-raise from SB, you call, you check flop, he push - as some maniacal-type players are apt to do), then it's call IMO. Maybe a call if he's been maniacal in general as well.

I'd guess he has a mid-pair or shat (more likely the latter), though sometimes people will "fake bluff push" with top pair, hoping you'll call them with worse for all your chips. So...how he's been playing til now should give you a clue as to "why" he's played this hand this way, and how 2nd-pair-shat-kicker does against his likely holdings...

[durron597]

If you weren't going to call this push, why did you call preflop?

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
If you weren't going to call this push, why did you call preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

this is an exact quote of the problem with most 2+2ers. they dont know how to do anything but shove or fold. what is the relevance of this question? i did call preflop, and i did call on the flop. holla

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

this is an exact quote of the problem with most 2+2ers. they dont know how to do anything but shove or fold. what is the relevance of this question? i did call preflop, and i did call on the flop. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

I was agreeing with your call /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

On the other hand, I usually fold low cards to a raise out of position. I try to make my hands where I do the most post flop play be my button.

[adanthar]

You know that 'betting impetus' thing a couple of people have talked about back when the forum wasn't 2/3 full of in jokes (hey, I know they're funny, but come on. holla)?

This is when that comes in real handy.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
I was agreeing with your call

On the other hand, I usually fold low cards to a raise out of position. I try to make my hands where I do the most post flop play be my button.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, i dont mind calling min raises for an additional 6% of my stack to see a flop HU. i feel my edge is MORE than big enough to cover any statistical differences in hand percentages. dont min raise my blinds, you will have to play poker. holla

[freemoney]

he has no idea he is going to make middle pair or that villian is gonna massively overbet the flop when checked to, deal with the present.

[SlackerMcFly]

[ QUOTE ]
The whole point he checks the flop is so his opponent commits more chips when he generally will have missed the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand the concept of checking the flop if you hold a strong hand to induce opponent to commit more chips. Had he simply "missed the flop" a bet of 1/2 the pot or so would be appropriate. In this case, however, villain goes all-in after Raptor's rubber check.

If villain is actually playing a hand he likes and would push pre-flop (JJ+, AK??) then why the wimpy bet of 450? For the exact same reason..... He has a "monster" and wants to induce betting. Getting no raise, then a check from Hero, he forces the issue by going all-in and making Hero do the deciding.

Calling the all-in with a pair of 5's is insane to me (but we all know Raptor isn't quite right).

Outcome will be that the turn is a 5, river is a 5 and Mr. Raptor is the winner. More likely though, villain has him beat with 88, 99, TT or (gasp) JA when the turn/river produces no 4 or 5.

Hero is still left with 1600+ chips to luck-box into a win later in the tourney, so maybe the call is okay... I just can't figure the math to be correct on this one to make it profitable overall.

Slacker - Who is still not good at math

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The whole point he checks the flop is so his opponent commits more chips when he generally will have missed the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand the concept of checking the flop if you hold a strong hand to induce opponent to commit more chips. Had he simply "missed the flop" a bet of 1/2 the pot or so would be appropriate. In this case, however, villain goes all-in after Raptor's rubber check.

[/ QUOTE ]

If Raptor was playing me and my finger slipped to make me minraise, that's exactly what I'd do.

If he's playing roughly 98% of SNG players, this is AK much more often than AJ and it isn't close.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The whole point he checks the flop is so his opponent commits more chips when he generally will have missed the flop


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I understand the concept of checking the flop if you hold a strong hand to induce opponent to commit more chips. Had he simply "missed the flop" a bet of 1/2 the pot or so would be appropriate. In this case, however, villain goes all-in after Raptor's rubber check.

If villain is actually playing a hand he likes and would push pre-flop (JJ+, AK??) then why the wimpy bet of 450? For the exact same reason..... He has a "monster" and wants to induce betting. Getting no raise, then a check from Hero, he forces the issue by going all-in and making Hero do the deciding.

Calling the all-in with a pair of 5's is insane to me (but we all know Raptor isn't quite right).

Outcome will be that the turn is a 5, river is a 5 and Mr. Raptor is the winner. More likely though, villain has him beat with 88, 99, TT or (gasp) JA when the turn/river produces no 4 or 5.

Hero is still left with 1600+ chips to luck-box into a win later in the tourney, so maybe the call is okay... I just can't figure the math to be correct on this one to make it profitable overall.

Slacker - Who is still not good at math

[/ QUOTE ]

sorry slacker, but yer wrong /images/graemlins/frown.gif if i ever min raise in a spot like that im shoving this flop EVERY time. no matter what i ahve. holla

[SlackerMcFly]

[ QUOTE ]
If he's playing roughly 98% of SNG players, this is AK much more often than AJ and it isn't close.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think that I see the logic now. Villain opts for the all-in with a 24% chance to improve over any random hand after the flop. Missing the flop won't matter to him at this point as he has to think that his AK is good given the micro-flop.

Raptor calls the all-in knowing he has a "made hand" and is ahead of any over-cards except one of the three remaining J's. Also, he has 5 cards yet to help him in the deck (9:1 or so to improve on his made hand) and will have chips left to work with given the small blinds at this point.

Am I close?? Thanks for the post and the education.
Slacker

[SlackerMcFly]

[ QUOTE ]
if i ever min raise in a spot like that im shoving this flop EVERY time. no matter what i have. holla

[/ QUOTE ]
So Villain made the right play with any two cards in this spot and you would do the same?

Do tell..... I'm simply intrigued and eager to learn. Really.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

if i ever min raise in a spot like that im shoving this flop EVERY time. no matter what i have. holla


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


So Villain made the right play with any two cards in this spot and you would do the same?

Do tell..... I'm simply intrigued and eager to learn. Really.

[/ QUOTE ]

heads up, people fold too much. period. u get away with WAY too many plays. super agression = pwnage. holla

[SlackerMcFly]

Nice thought. Thanks for the advice.

I simply have to stop wimping out. So, what was the final result of this hand? We are waiting......

I'll be in Reno next week Tues - Fri if you want to come play some Black Jack!

Slacker - Who lost to JohnnyBeef today and is embarassed

[raptor517]

***RESULTS***

so i autocalled his bet, and he fliipped over 5h4s /images/graemlins/wink.gif we chopped. i thought that was really funny. holla

[SlackerMcFly]

Bwahaahaa. Pretty funny yes. You $215 guys all think alike.

But what about the next hand? Did you rape his BB with 32o?

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
***RESULTS***

so i autocalled his bet, and he fliipped over 5h4s /images/graemlins/wink.gif we chopped. i thought that was really funny. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

And how stupid do you feel were he to have 56?

No likey the call, but HEAVILY read-dependant.

[treeofwisdom7]

being the newbie im gonna say fold. but i think i need to know how this guy has been playing b4 this hand for me to make a good play