Getting better... Moving to the next level?

[Fitz]

I play mostly 2/4 and 3/6 on Paradise. My records contain over 1300 hours of online play, and I am currently beating the game for just over 1 BB an hour. I've read HPFAP, and I do use it as a reference book, and I follow this forum daily. I am curious about what else I need to do to take my game to the next level? I see the better players here talking about realistically winning 3+ BB's an hour playing 2 tables online. When things are going well for me, I have results like this, but it seems I regularly go through big downswings that eat into my profits and leave me back about 1 BB an hour.

I've been trying to analzye my own game over the last few days, and I've found a few possible trouble spots.

1. I probably still don't value bet the river enough; I often check down the river when I should probably bet out.

2. I still have a hard time making tough laydowns. For example, you hold AcKc; the flop comes A 10 3; you bet out, and get some callers; the turn pairs the 10, and a new bettor springs to life or raises. This screams, "Trips!!", but I still have trouble letting go here, should I?

3. I have been known to fall in love with a big hand preflop even in the face of a scary board and a lot of action.

4. I rarely tilt, but I have been known to play too long, and get tired; this can lead to poor play as well as a form of tilt.

I am going to look through the hand histories for some examples of problem hands and get them posted; I know it is easier to analyze things if you can see specifics. Also, I'm going to add "Theory of Poker" to my library soon; I'll probably order it today.

Any suggestions or thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

[balt999]

First suggestion is for myself...Don't play at this guy's table....you're a tough cookie /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

Making tough laydowns and falling in love with a hand is probably the toughest part of improving your game. What I do is ask myself questions....why is he raising? Why is he check-raising, why did he raise preflop...then check the flop? etc....again it's player dependent....

I have the same problem of value betting the river...it's just something that comes with experience and knowing your opponent, which is the biggest factor in my opinion.

hope this helps....

[Ed Miller]

I probably still don't value bet the river enough; I often check down the river when I should probably bet out.

Learning to bet the river appropriately is a little tricky... and recently I've improved that part of my game. I decided that I had been failing to bet the river because I was irrationally afraid of my opponent calling and showing the better hand... which, for better or worse, makes some people (including me... at least the old me) feel stupid. So what I did was just force myself to bet the river in all sorts of marginal (and probably too marginal) situations. Basically every time I had been betting throughout the hand, I would go ahead and bet on the end... underpairs... third pairs... even unimproved AK. This was probably betting the river too often... but betting the river marginally too often is really no worse than betting the river not enough, and it fully got me past the psychological hurdle. Now I am backing off and learning when not to bet the river.

[Homer]

What is your username on Paradise? Is it 'biggestfitz'? If so, I am at your table now, and I'd be happy to more closely watch your play...

-- Homer

[Louie Landale]

You've got two issues here:

[1] When playing your regular 3/6 game start looking around at the 5/10 for a "better" game; which should feature many callers and fewer raises. Once in a while take a shot at these good games. You'll be a "3/6 player who plays 5/10 sometimes". Your frequency in these games will increase over time, and eventually you'll notice that you are a "5/10 player who sometimes plays 3/6".

No need to "jump up", just "ease up".

[2] Improving your game. I strongly suspect that value betting the river is the weakest spot of most aspiring young players arsenal. I see SO many hopeless checks on the river.

The basic rule is this: if you had apparently the best hand on the turn (such as when you bet and they call), then you need a GOOD specific reason to fear the river card before you can check. Having the "obvious" hand you have is NOT a good enough reason to check.

Here's an example. You check AJ in the blind. Flop is A85, you check raise an middle player and get heads up. Turn is 4, you bet he calls. I can think of NO river card you can reasonably fear, and so should routinely bet the river. Yes, he MIGHT make 2-pair, but he's a big favorite NOT to hit the river, and is very likely to still call even though you have the "obvious" hand you've been representing.

Yes, there are MORE hands to bet on the turn than on the river, but not all THAT many hands.

- Louie

[Mike Gallo]

Fitz,

Good post. I do not play online so I cannot comment on the quality of game. However in a live ring game, just over one big bet an hour is a good earn.

Post some of the hands that you have a problem with so the forum can help. I got a lot of excellent advice from the forum when I first started posting hands.

Great job of discovering some of your leaks.Now you need the discipline to fix them. Once you solve those problems or leaks, new leaks will probably spring. Honestly evaluate your play after every session.

A key to improving your play is to constantly evaluate your game. Do not become results oriented. Always ask yourself if you could you have played a hand in a more profitable manner. Another key is having the abiltity to honestly critique yourself and take critism and worthwhile advice from others. Overall you will get some excellent advice.

I am currently re-reading the Theory of Poker, excellent book. You might have to read it a few times before you fully undertand it. I know I did /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

[tewall]

Not getting in river bets is an important thing to work on. A rule of thumb to use is if no one has indicated strength against the hand that you're representing, then you should generally bet the river. That is, if you're betting represents something like top pair and people are just following along, you should bet. Bob Ciaffone has a really good chapter on this in his book "Improve Your Poker"

I wouldn't worry about "tough laydowns" as what are really tough laydowns represent only a fraction of a bet.

However routine laydowns are another story. And the earlier in the action, the better. That is, not correctly laying down on the river will typically only cost some fraction of a bet. Not correctly laying down on the flop can be quite expensive, especially if you improve to a second best hand.

Being too passive is a common costly mistake.

I think you're suggestion of posting some problem hands is a very good one.

[Fitz]

That's me; what's your handle?

[Homer]

I'm sorry but I cannot divulge that information, as I do not want my 2/4 opponents studying my posts to gain insight on my playing tendencies.















OK, its Homer Jay

-- Homer (Jay)

[bernie]

common misconception of players overrating themselves...

winning 3 BB per hour online with 2 tables....

hands per hour....1 table....70+ probably more depending...
2 tables.....say 150...

with low rakes online youre averaging 3BBs in just over 4 hours of live play with a favorable rake. (adjust if rake is different, and if hands per hour is different. ive noticed many full tables online going 80 hands)....this is under 1BB an hour in live play...live play is 35 hands/hour. 3/4BB per hour.

theyre still beating the game, but the stat may be misleading.
isnt the number for great live game players 2BBs an hour? with a bigger rake?

probably a little less now with the level of play getting a little better overall...but im guessing it's still well over 1 BB an hour per 35 hands....

one of the toughest games to beat is a live 4-8 with a $3 rake and $1 JP drop. add tips to that....

use the above for your own stat calcs against a live game...then judge from there

you may be ready for a higher limit. hey, you may even find a higher limit easier, who knows?

if you have enough for a session roll that isnt going to bust you, take a shot. if anything, you may find it will help your play at your normal limit. i notice this after i take a shot at higher limits, whether i win or lose...

some stuff to think about..

b

[AceHigh]

Hey Fitz,

I have the same experiences you have had. Running great for a while and making 2+BB/HR playing 2/4 at PP. Then things evening out and my average coming back to 1BB/HR.

I've played against you quite a bit and you seem like a solid player. Only one recommendation, #4 happens to me, and I think it is because I am losing, I play too long. I usually don't play as well when I am losing a lot and combine that with playing too long and my game goes down hill fast. So, I've try to set a limit, say 200 hands and only play 200-250 hands, seems to keep me out of trouble.

[eMarkM]

Just looking through my hands with you. I have 440. Here's some comments on the hands that I have a showdown for you on. I'm only commenting on questionable play.

I have a couple of hands where open-raise in EP w/ KJo. Too loose, that's a fold usually with many to act behind you. Though overall you don't have a terrible flop % (23 in my book).

3/6, a hand against me. I limp EP w/ KJs. You get free ride in BB with J5o. Flop comes J95. You check, I bet, you call. Where's the check raise here, waiting for the turn? Now a 9 comes on the turn and your hand gets counterfieted, but you showed no aggression again with a check-call. There's no reason to think I have anything, I'm just a limper betting against a random hand.

3/6, folded to you in CO, you open limp with A5s. Raise and win the blinds. You get called by an awful player holding 84s and he nearly backdoors you with the flush after you flop top pair. Then you didn't bet the river for value against this loser when HU. Though in this case he likely folds, this kind of player will pay off with all kinds of garbage.

There's a few other hands that I think you missed some bets. With the exception of the KJ hands it looks like you play ok preflop, but it looks like you could use a little more aggression post flop when you get a piece of it.

[Bob T.]

When you talk about feeling stupid for betting the worst hand, I was at a table a couple of weeks ago, where the table teased my opponent, because he never got a bet in with the best hand.

I open raised with AQ, the flop came AK little, and he hit his kicker on the turn, but was afraid that I had AK, so he went call, call, call. After the showdown, when guys were asking him why he never raised, he said 'That guy over there (me), is like one of those guys in Vegas, once he starts betting, he just keeps firing, and I never know where I am at.'

I took it as a complement.

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[bernie]

200-250 hands online is like 6-7 hours of live play. handwise, that is

using a time/hand limit is a great idea...especially if you know about where you start declining.

however, ive found if i put in a good long session, my playing range of when i play well increases a little. the long session sometimes makes the normal sessions seem shorter and i play fresher, longer.

a way of conditioning oneself, i think....

cya...

b

[AceHigh]

"my playing range of when i play well increases a little."

Online, because it is so easy to come and go, I find my longest sessions are often losers. I am sticking around trying to become unstuck. FWIW, I think I'm not playing my best at the end of these long, losing sessions.

[Fitz]

With me open raising with KJo in EP, I was either on some form of tilt, I thought I could steal from there, or a brain cramp. I agree, either way, it is a fishy play.

I remember that J5 hand; I was going to checkraise the turn, but I got counterfitted, so I decided to see the river as cheap as I could.

The A5s should have been a raise. I will sometimes limp with a hand like that in hopes of keeping in as many as possible for the flush.

I know overall, I do miss some bets, and I think that is my biggest leak right now. I appreciate the input, from everyone, I'll keep working on the game, and hopefully fix some of my leaks.

Thanks,

[MRBAA]

Fitz, having also played 2-4 he online with you I thought you played well and were one of the stronger players in the game. But I thought that your hand-reading skills seemed relatively less strong than your hand selection and understanding of positional play. Having also played with Kurnson of Mogh in the same games, I'd rate him considerably stronger at putting his opponents on hands and playing different situations well.

[Fitz]

That is not a real strong part of my game; it definitely needs some work. There are times when I have a read on my opponents hand, but can't bring myself to act on it for fear of being wrong. I think I also make the mistake of putting my opponents on a better hand than they actually have.