Pot odds or bleeding chips?

[durron597]

Early on. I felt that the button likely had a pretty big hand. Preflop: implied odds. Flop: Pure pot odds and I thought the button had a big hand so low FE. Turn: I thought leading out would confuse the button enough to let me see a cheap river.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP3 (t1490)
CO (t1640)
Button (t1470)
SB (t1460)
Hero (t1500)
UTG (t1500)
UTG+1 (t1480)
MP1 (t1460)
MP2 (t1500)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls t20, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP3 calls t20, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t60</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls t40, UTG+1 calls t40, MP3 calls t40.

Flop: (t250) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP3 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets t100</font>, Hero calls t100, UTG+1 calls t100, MP3 folds.

Turn: (t550) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t100</font>, UTG+1 calls t100, Button calls t100.

River: (t850) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets t240</font>, Hero folds, UTG+1 folds.

Final Pot: t1090

[gumpzilla]

If you assume that the limpers will come along, which seems like an okay assumption, the PF call is okay, neither great nor bad, in my book. Being out of position is not so hot, but probably not awful.

Flop seems okay. The A is probably not a useful out; if it were, a healthy flop c/r might be nice here, but I think just check-calling a small bet, particularly since an overcall from one of the limpers is reasonably likely, is okay.

The turn bet is bad. I don't really see the point of it. What are you trying to represent? Do you think you have any chance of getting better hands to fold here? Check and see what develops.

I doubt you'd get a fold with a river bet, since I don't think anybody will give you credit for a 6, so check-folding the river seems okay.

[freemoney]

you kind of get into a weird/middle-ground situation where you wanna take the pot but dont really wanna put any chips in the middle, also this is a hand where you dont wanna have control over the hand if you had QJ i would love the way you played it (only change a little more on the turn like 200) and calling the river. either check/call check/call check/fold to play to hit your draw or try and win the pot earlier but make a decision.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
The turn bet is bad. I don't really see the point of it. What are you trying to represent? Do you think you have any chance of getting better hands to fold here? Check and see what develops.

[/ QUOTE ]

Note that no one raised me on the turn. That was the plan; it was a blocking bet to try to induce a cheap river.

[gumpzilla]

Right, but I think the odds are good that 100 is the price you would have paid to see the river anyway, and it's not impossible that it would have been checked around. Plus, it's a pretty weak looking bet, and I think a lot of the time it will have the opposite effect where it encourages somebody to blow you off of your hand. So I don't really like it here.

[Freudian]

The big problem with chasing draws is that 1/4 of the time you get a nice big stack while 3/4 times you seriously hurt your FE.

I don't mind it here. You get a pretty good price to draw and if the draw hits pot will be big enough to get some callers. Not crazy about calling a preflop raise though.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't mind it here. You get a pretty good price to draw and if the draw hits pot will be big enough to get some callers. Not crazy about calling a preflop raise though.

[/ QUOTE ]

The fact that I called a preflop raise means that my implied odds are higher. Or am I missing something?

[Freudian]

Nah, it was me missing that it was a PS tourney. I assumed it was a Party one. Here calling the raise is a smaller part of your stack.

I still want to see cheap flops when doing this though, since otherwise why not call a raise with 98s etc?

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

I still want to see cheap flops when doing this though, since otherwise why not call a raise with 98s etc?

[/ QUOTE ]

In this particular situation, I'd probably be slightly happier about having 98s than A5s, just because straights are generally easier to get paid off. And it's okay to call a raise if it's not too much of your stack and it's going to be a nice multi-way pot, at least in my book.

[Freudian]

Suddenly you find yourself in 30% of hands early just because you have something that might flop well.

With PS SnGs obviously there are chips to be gained early with good postflop play. I still like to pass on raised pots and do this when I can see the flops cheaply. But I'm Party-only so I suspect I am more into stack-preservation than needed on PS.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
Suddenly you find yourself in 30% of hands early just because you have something that might flop well.

With PS SnGs obviously there are chips to be gained early with good postflop play. I still like to pass on raised pots and do this when I can see the flops cheaply. But I'm Party-only so I suspect I am more into stack-preservation than needed on PS.

[/ QUOTE ]

60 chips is a tiny raise, especially with the number of limpers. Do you realize I'm getting over 3:1 immediate odds? The fact that I'm in the blind makes my pot odds huge.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
Suddenly you find yourself in 30% of hands early just because you have something that might flop well.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an exaggeration, and I don't recommend playing every suited connector or suited ace regardless of conditions. The situation that the OP was in - calling a small raise from the BB after two limpers who will almost certainly overcall for ~2-3% of his stack - is not a bad situation to play 98s or A5s, and that's what we were discussing.

[PapiChulo503]

Durron, what is the buy-in for this tourney?

Preflop- your out of position and calling a raise after two other players had entered the pot. I see the implied odds though, I would call this as well if I was pretty sure the other two players were coming along.

What would you do if someone 3 bet?

FLop- after everyone checks to him again he shows strength again. What did you think his likely holdings were?

AA-77,
AK-A10(suited or non)
KQ-KJ(s)

Your getting appx 4 to 1 to draw to the nuts not to mention your getting a re-draw if a 3 hits. I would call this as well.

Do you think a semi-bluff would work here? Call his 100 plus another 200. Wouldnt this give you a bit more insight as to what the villain might be holding?

Turn- Im checking here and probably folding to a raise since its a 3-way pot. Is that weak? It might be a leak for me. UTG has been smooth calling this whole time, im thinking you lost to TPTK or a set of ladies.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

What would you do if someone 3 bet?


[/ QUOTE ]

Insta muck.

[ QUOTE ]

FLop- after everyone checks to him again he shows strength again. What did you think his likely holdings were?

AA-77,
AK-A10(suited or non)
KQ-KJ(s)


[/ QUOTE ]

This is reasonable.

[ QUOTE ]

Do you think a semi-bluff would work here? Call his 100 plus another 200. Wouldnt this give you a bit more insight as to what the villain might be holding?


[/ QUOTE ]

I strongly doubted it would get checkraised behind me, and I didn't want to shut out the players behind me. If they call and the turn is a bigger spade, woo big pot! Also I was fairly confident that the button had something decent (continuation bets are usually larger than 1/3 pot) and so I thought a c/r would have low fold equity. He's giving me my pot odds, why not take them?

[ QUOTE ]

Turn- Im checking here and probably folding to a raise since its a 3-way pot. Is that weak? It might be a leak for me. UTG has been smooth calling this whole time, im thinking you lost to TPTK or a set of ladies.

[/ QUOTE ]

Checking is certainly standard here and is what I normally do. I bet the 100 in an attempt to confuse the button and UTG+1 into calling. But gumpzilla made some excellent points as to why that's bad. I'd love to hear more thoughts on this.

Results? They are in the OP. I missed and checkfolded. So I don't know what button had. Does it really matter?

[adanthar]

I think the call at Stars is pretty much automatic even OOP, and given that the hand's pretty standard except for the weird turn bet.

If it works, it works, but you get raised a lot there.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
If it works, it works, but you get raised a lot there.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think if button has JJ he bets more on the turn, but he just calls the 100.

Anyone like a river c/r allin here? Does it scream busted flush? What do you put me on after the weird turn bet?