Sorry for the flurry, but this one seemed important.

[Willluck]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Flop: (14 SB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero...???
Comments on PF are appreciated as well.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (12.33 SB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Hero...???
Seems easy I know, but...???

[admiralfluff]

Depending on who is in the hand, I often will not raise KQo out of the BB.

Both of these are necessary bets, although I suppose you could try a c/r in hand 1 if you had decent reads on any of the late position players.

[jba]

preflop fine all around, and a flop bet is definitely the best option in both cases.

[brettbrettr]

I don't like the pre-flop raise with KQo. KQs, yes. Bet the flop, in both hands.

[Grease]

Hmm...I don't ever raise KQo in the BB unless there are few players in instead of many, but I'd be interested to hear arguments both ways.

I bet the flop in both cases, unless there is an aggressive late position player who I could c/r in hand 1. You really can't protect your hand no matter what you do, so you might as well bet what should be the best hand on the flop and collect all those bets.

[Gixxer]

Hand 1: it would be nice to c/r a late position bet to cut the odds of the limpers but since you raised pf, you have to bet for value.

Hand2: seems like another easy value bet. If check raise by someone with a 2, reevaluate. Set of 2s would often wait till turn to show colors.

[CashFlo]

PF raise in hand 1 is incorrect.

Bet both flops.

[thirddan]

bet both...

if you had checked your option in hand 1 then i think a c/r is best...

[DawnToDusk]

In your 2/4 hand I don't like your raise preflop. I think it would of been a great raise if your KQ was suited, but raising after all of those limpers with that hand is asking for trouble. I mean it may win, but usually you raise for value in that position with suited KQ becuase it is a strong starting hand that will make money by the river by making a strong hand. I would of just checked preflop and then come out betting on the flop and take it from there. The board isn't coordinated so that is good for your KQo.

[toss]

Both hands, why would you check? I don't see any reason to.

[LImitPlayer]

Hand 1: PF raise is not good

Hand 2: Easy PF raise

Bet the flop in both hands

[jskills]

What is the dilemma in betting out on either of these hands? In both cases you're a big favorite.

[Willluck]

[ QUOTE ]
Both hands, why would you check? I don't see any reason to.

[/ QUOTE ]
I wanted to check the first one to try to c/r, clear the field, also if it were to check through, a turn bet will easily get people to fold. Suppose I bet out and get 3 callers, I am building a huge pot, and there is a slim chance anyone who called the flop would fold the turn. Now in hand 2 I have a marginal hand, so if I bet and get 3 callers with over cards there is no way they are going to fold the turn, either in the huge pot that I built (another situation where my equity is diminished by every cent I drop in the pot).
In hand 2 checking isn't terrible, IMO.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
I wanted to check the first one to try to c/r, clear the field, also if it were to check through,

[/ QUOTE ]

You won't have these problems as much when you don't bloat the pot out of position.

Bet for value. People won't miraculously bet in LP because you want them to, especially after you were the PFR. Since you made the pot GINORMOUS preflop you still aren't going to fold anything on the turn, since you'll be offering everyone 8+:1.

Rob

[Borno]

c/r 1st hand, bet out 2nd hand

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
c/r 1st hand, bet out 2nd hand

[/ QUOTE ]

What makes you think a c/r will work in the first hand?

A) You're still offering ~8.5:1.
B) You're praying for a LP bet but it's probably not happening.

[DeathDonkey]

I think failing to raise preflop in hand 1 would be a significant mistake at 2/4. I would bet in both cases and be prepared for my favorite line: bet bet bet.

-DeathDonkey

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]

I think failing to raise preflop in hand 1 would be a significant mistake at 2/4.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not even close to a significant mistake, homie.

[Borno]

easy,

If you do bet out someone has odds for a GS, so betting out doesn't protect you. c/ring does. Bet out if the turn is safe. This is 7 handed I'm pretty sure somoene will bet.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
easy,

If you do bet out someone has odds for a GS, so betting out doesn't protect you. c/ring does. Bet out if the turn is safe. This is 7 handed I'm pretty sure somoene will bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

c/ring doesn't protect you against a GS, especially given the implied odds. It certainly doesn't protect you against 5-outers/

And being pretty sure "someone" will bet isn't good enough.

Rob

[Borno]

so its a pure value bet and thats the end of it?

[DeathDonkey]

Well I haven't played 2/4 in quite awhile, but they are limping with all sorts of trash. Would you play it any differently between 0.50/1 and 2/4? Or am I way off base here and it just doesn't have a big enough equity edge over slightly better than random hands?

-DeathDonkey

[toss]

I don't think theres a big enough edge. You have a top pair hand in a large multiway pot and you're out of position. Your hand does have some straight possibilities, but I don't think thats enough to raise it up automatically.

[chief444]

I think the biggest thing you're off base on is what you consider a "significant" mistake.

I wouldn't raise KQo from the blinds against an army of limpers.

[JerseyTom]

Hand 1:
I don't raise this PF vs 6 limpers.
Bet the flop. Too risky to try a C/R. If called, lead the turn. You just have to hope your hand holds up.

Hand 2:
Preflop is OK.
Bet the flop. You're probably best and you must try to thin the field somewhat since you will hate many turn cards. Overs will be correct to call one on the flop. You just have to hope your hand holds up.

[Sarge85]

I don't like the raise out of the BB with KQ - at any rate - these are both easy easy bets/raises on the flop.

What are you asking about specifcally?

If in hand one your asking about your pf raise - as mentioned - not a fan. if you were suited sure. if you were against the SB or one limpers - sure.

the 99 Hand - you really need to bet. If nothing else maybe the button will muck. Overs will (should) call - but why let them call for free. The paired board shoudln't be a concern - yet.

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[Willluck]

Entity, do you understand why checking isn't a bad idea in hand 2? SSHE and HEPFAP mention this line.

[Nate tha' Great]

You probably shouldn't be raising the first hand if the flop decision is at all difficult. I mean, what the hell?

[B Dids]

Not to be a dick, but how do you possibly have a question on either of these flops?

[DeuceKicker]

[ QUOTE ]
Entity, do you understand why checking isn't a bad idea in hand 2? SSHE and HEPFAP mention this line.

[/ QUOTE ]

Remind me what they say about this?

This seems like a pretty good flop for you. You lost one of the blinds, who stand to have more of a truly "random" hand, so I wouldn't think you'd be terrified of a deuce being out there. There is a somewhat weak straight draw, but really, if you don't like this flop, what were you hoping to see... 992 and KKQ for hand 1?

[Willluck]

Hand 1: HUGE pot, betting and getting calls makes this pot bigger (big enough for people to see the river with an A or pair). A c/r might help prevent this, but betting out is probably my only real choice.

Hand 2: HUGE pot, marginal hand (lots of over cards). Betting is not gonna make anyone with over cards fold, in fact it is just going to build a pot. If checked through, a turn BB could knockout overs or GS.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
I wanted to check the first one to try to c/r, clear the field, also if it were to check through, a turn bet will easily get people to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then why in hell would you raise against this many players if you want to plan for a checkraise?

[B Dids]

My short answer to both is that in both spots you're betting for value, not to try and get people to fold, that's just a nice after affect of the betting in the first place.

I'm not really sure I want people folding in the first hand anyway.

[Willluck]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I wanted to check the first one to try to c/r, clear the field, also if it were to check through, a turn bet will easily get people to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then why in hell would you raise against this many players if you want to plan for a checkraise?

[/ QUOTE ]

GP. I realize that the trap I fell into on the flop was bcuz of the PFR.