Educating other players and HOH II

[Sean D]

I've been playing at this certain home game for about 6 or 7 months now. Its a small buy-in tournament that we play twice a week with about 10-15 players. I've had consistently good results, and usually finish in the money about two-thirds of the time. There are a few bad players, a few decent ones, and no really great ones. Most fall into the category of either weak-tight or LAG, though there are a few that can pull some moves every once in a while.

Early on, I discussed poker with these guys that I had just met, and made it known that I am an "educated" player. With my consistent good results, some came to me for advice and ask to borrow books. I've lent out HOH I, TPFAP, TOP, etc. and shortly after noticed an improvement in their games.

Now, HOH II comes out. I have been familiar with most of the concepts in the book, although now these are given a name, and these concepts are what allow me to consistently finish up top. Soon, these players will be asking to borrow the book, as I let them know that I had received it recently. I don't really want these players to "become hip" to what I am doing in the later stages of a tournament. And I certainly don't want them to be pulling these moves on me.

So the dilemma is, let them borrow it or not? The money is pretty insignificant to me, but it doesn't hurt. I usually profit a couple hundred a month. Is wanting to keep my competition weaker wrong? Even though these guys are my friends and the money doesn't mean much, I don't like to lose. Thanks for any responses.

Sean D

[WhiteWolf]

My philosophy: if they're your friends, help them out. If they get better at poker, you'll have a great resource to talk about the game with, which can only help you. You'll also get regular experience against a better caliber of player, which will also only lead to faster improvement. Of course, to profit you'll have to use you newly honed skills on strangers, by playing online or in some outside games....

[jon_1van]

This is all about why you play,
Are you primarily their friend. Or are you primarily their opponent?

If you don't want to lend HoH2 just tell them you are still reading it....because there are parts in it that are confusing to you.

[Allinlife]

bring your game to the next level /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Sean D]

Well, these guys are my opponents and my friends. I don't really hang out with them outside of poker, but they're good guys. I guess it won't hurt to have a little better competition.

[utmt40]

[ QUOTE ]
My philosophy: if they're your friends, help them out. If they get better at poker, you'll have a great resource to talk about the game with, which can only help you. You'll also get regular experience against a better caliber of player, which will also only lead to faster improvement. Of course, to profit you'll have to use you newly honed skills on strangers, by playing online or in some outside games....

[/ QUOTE ]

Couldnt have said it better myself.

[TheCroShow]

at the same time you should tell these guys to buy their own books!

[utmt40]

[ QUOTE ]
at the same time you should tell these guys to buy their own books!

[/ QUOTE ]

Very true as well.

[Dan Mezick]

You can't stop it, so make the best of it by taking the lead.

Lend them your books.

Why do that? C'mon, use your imagination.

[stevea]

[ QUOTE ]
My philosophy: if they're your friends, help them out. If they get better at poker, you'll have a great resource to talk about the game with, which can only help you. You'll also get regular experience against a better caliber of player, which will also only lead to faster improvement. Of course, to profit you'll have to use you newly honed skills on strangers, by playing online or in some outside games....

[/ QUOTE ]

I totally agree with this!

The home game I play is with friends, and I would much rather have better game-play and better competition then win all the money.

steve

Check out my home league: <font color="red">North Shore Low Rollers</font> (http://www.homepokerclub.net/clubhome.php?clubid=1)

[d1sterbd]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, these guys are my opponents and my friends. I don't really hang out with them outside of poker, but they're good guys. I guess it won't hurt to have a little better competition.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you don't hang out with them outside of poker then they probably aren't your friends. I wouldn't lie to them about the fact that I am a serious and educated player, but I wouldn't spoon feed these guys information.

I would think about giving one of them information only if I thought that person was going to develop into a player that could give information back to me down the road. If they aren't willing to buy a book than you can forget about that happening.

[ncskiier]

[ QUOTE ]


If you don't hang out with them outside of poker then they probably aren't your friends. I wouldn't lie to them about the fact that I am a serious and educated player, but I wouldn't spoon feed these guys information.

I would think about giving one of them information only if I thought that person was going to develop into a player that could give information back to me down the road. If they aren't willing to buy a book than you can forget about that happening.

[/ QUOTE ]

My thoughts exactly. I especially like the second part.

[Sean D]

Just because I don't hang out with them outside of poker doesn't mean they aren't my friends. Most of them are either younger (18-19) or older (28-40) so our social activities would differ I guess. We talk with each other during poker about the play of hands and it is nice to have someone to talk with. I'm not gonna spoon-feed these guys information. If I'm done with a book and I'm not gonna re-read it for a while, then I don't mind letting them borrow it. I understand what you guys are saying, though. The money isn't a huge deal to me, and it could make me a stronger player. But from now on, I'll let them approach me and ask to borrow books rather than mentioning to them that I bought new books.

[GoSharks]

I had a chuckle after reading Dan Mezick's comment a few replies ago, since he hit on exactly the thing that I did. Anyone who is serious enough about learning how to play well to borrow a book, but not serious enough to invest the money, time, and energy in the pursuit is a tremendous danger at the poker table. A danger to himself, of course.

Let's put ourselves in the head of one of these guys. How many readings and rereadings, moments of reflection, etc, does it take to truly understand some of the white meat presented in some of the more in-depth books? Does a single read-through, or even a second read truly make a player better? I honestly think the opposite is true. A player who borrows a book, or ten, will inevitably fall into an unpleasant place with regard to his play, he'll make fancy plays based on a slight understanding of some of the more difficult situations. He may have some understanding of the 'what' in a situation, but will be completely deficient when forced to confront the 'why' behind the decisions he will soon be making. Overall, this will lead a person into making horrid decisions, all due to some vague recollection of pot odds, equity, implied odds, relative position, etc. Lending these books will probably hurt these players.

If you truly want them to improve to give yourself a better challenge, encourage them to buy these books and earnestly study them, not to learn what to do in a given situation, but to learn the underlying reasons behind good decision-making.

"A little knowledge is a dangerous thing" yeah, stress the word little.

He shoots, he SCOR. . . err, wrong game

[Felipe]

[ QUOTE ]
at the same time you should tell these guys to buy their own books!

[/ QUOTE ]

ya

[Lottery Larry]

Let them borrow it. The more they know, the more serious/dedicated and therefore REGULAR players they become. That will keep you pushing to improve as well.

[SamIAm]

[ QUOTE ]
Lending these books will probably hurt these players.

[/ QUOTE ]This is wrong, and it's not even close.

The first time I read SSH, it changed my game DRAMATICALLY. (and for the better) Hell, the first book I read, WLLH, changed me remarkably, and, again, for the better.

Suggesting that these guys simply aren't able to understand the books is a little condescending. The idea that being given a good book can hurt your game is absurd.
-Sam

[Matador225]

I also side with letting them borrow it. It will probably improve their level of play but not to the point where your chances of making the money are seriously hurt.

[Hold'me]

I guess it all comes down to how well they will be able to absorb all of the information contained in a book like HOH Volume 2. Still if I consider them friends, I don't see any problems in recommending or letting them borrow some of my poker literature. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Sean D]

I've still been lending the books out. If they get better because of my help, then good. Hopefully soon I'll be able to talk in depth with these guys about certain plays and get their feedback. I'd like to take my game to the next level, and I really can only do that with good competition. Beating on the fish is easy, beating good players makes me feel good.

[2planka]

[ QUOTE ]
Early on, I discussed poker with these guys that I had just met, and made it known that I am an "educated" player

[/ QUOTE ]

First, a minor flame. No disrespect intended.
I understand you think of these blokes are your friends, but you may not want to make a habit of "making it known that you're and educated player." Just telling them this will make them play better.... against you.

Second, here's how some poker playing friends and I handle this stuff: We don't discuss strategy while we're playing (see my first point). If an interesting hand comes up, we'll kick it around after we're done playing, via email, etc. It's one way we prevent ourselves from tapping the glass, so to speak.

[joeboe2001]

A friend of one of our local players helped him out by paying half of his entry fee to WSOP 2005.

He (Donnenman) is 5th in chips going into tonight's final table--he says he is giving half his prize money back to his friend!!!