Interesting hand.....but was I a wuss on my read....

[Dentist]

3-6 Hold 'em last night.

I'm on the button with pocket 3d 3s
5 callers, no raises.

Flop comes As 10c 3c

SB (a notorious person for betting on the come, but also a solid player) bets.
BB calls, folded to me
I raise.

Next card is the 3rd club (I can't remember which one, it was a blank).

SB now bets, which is very peculiar because I expected it to be checked to me.
BB folds
I only call fully expecting to see SB have the flush, but I figured I had outs.

River card was a blank.

SB bet
I made a crying call.

Was this lame? I know that betting into a raise indicates a strong hand, and my read was correct.

Why couldn't I fold?

[marbles]

"Why couldn't I fold?"

--Because you had 10 outs on the turn, and 8.5-1 on the showdown. He could very easily have AT, Ax, or a stone-cold bluff. You can't lay down your set for a single bet HU... At least I couldn't, anyway.

[Dentist]

And I guess I didn't make this clear in my original post, but she, of course, had the flush and I did call the river bet and showed the loser.

Maybe this is a common occurance, but I have a seemingly uncanny ability to know what players are going to show down before they do it.

I'm definitely not always right, but much more often than not I am. Maybe everyone does this well, but somehow I can just feel when someone has: flopped a set, is betting on the come, is running the "free card" play on me, has a set when there is a pair on the board - I just feel these things..... or maybe I'm just crazy.

However, I don't trust myself enough to lay it down.....

[eMarkM]

Good read on your part. But, obvioulsy you can't lay this down, you have plenty of outs to a paired board if SB does have the flush. I likely would have made the crying call on the end as well when I don't fill up, pot's pretty big. SB could just have an A.

[ZManODS]

As you said youre not 100% correct, so its usually correct to call on the river given proper pot odds, which it usually is. Because if you fold a better hand then you have lost tremendously, instead of 1 BB.

I think you played youre hand fine especially with the raise on the flop, make it expensive for him to draw out on you. Overall though, good read.

[Dentist]

If she would have had an Ace, even Ace King, or two pair
Why wouldn't she have either: re-raised on the flop or if she got her second pair on the turn, check-raise.

Frankly, I'm not sure why she didn't check-raise on the turn, that's what I would have done.

It's her turn bet into me, the raiser, which convinced me of the flush.

My only thought is that she forgot I raised the previous round. She's a good player, but flighty.

[calvin]

Hello,

If the flush I made was small, and you had raised on the flop, I would bet into you almost 90% of the time here. My reasoning is twofold and somewhat connected:

You could have been trying to buy a free card; you may have a larger flush than me and you would (probably) raise if you do.

OR

You could of had a strong hand that is now beat by a flush and you may check behind, fearing the flush is out.

I think the SB made a good play, as she wanted to make sure that there was a bet on the turn, and that she was (probably) in the lead on the turn.

Calvin

[calvin]

Hello,

I don't think you can play the hand very differently. I would raise the flop 100% of the time here, as it may even look like you want a free card for a flush draw.

You read the SB, but you still had a great redraw. It was correct to call the single bet HU to complete the action to see her flush, even though you were almost positive she had it, as the other posters have cited a range of hands (besides a flush) she could easily bet with on the turn.

Calvin

[Ed Miller]

Was this lame? ... Why couldn't I fold?

Folding in this situation would be insane. There's absolutely no way you can fold your set here... not even close. Honestly, I can't remember the last flopped set that I laid down... I'm sure I've done it at least once... just can't remember. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[bernie]

if your read is that strong, lay it down....i know the feeling...just make sure youve confirmed it...which it sounds like you have.

why cant you do this? hard to say....maybe you werent totally sure of your read....it's not wrong to call this, per se, but to get to the next level, i think youll be making these folds and saving the bet.

sometimes you just have to trust your read and not listen to that little voice in your head that wants you to become a calling station on the river when you know youre beat....

sure, once in awhile you may fold the winner, but if your read is that strong, it wont happen often at all....

but if in doubt, call...

it took me awhile to learn to trust my reads in this spot. it isnt easy. that 'what if...' voice can be very loud. especially if it's going to bother you not knowing if your fold was right because you wont see the others' cards....unless they show you after you fold, which some do...

b

[bernie]

folding the river here isnt insane...

especially against a player who wont bet into a flush possible board with anything less than a set that beats yours? and many with a set will slow down when the flush is possible out of fear that they arent leading. in this case, if this player is this type that would only bet when the flush hits, and isnt likely to be bluffing into a field on the turn, you can lay this down after you miss the river....

but again....if in doubt....call.

auto calling this isnt wrong, but it's not always optimal when considering your read, and knowledge of the player. this is actually another 'always/never' play i dont agree with...if your read is strong, use it. otherwise, why read hands?

lets exaggerate this...there are players at muckleshoot. and other rooms, that you can put on a flush in this situation almost instantly when they bet the turn. there's no reason to call the river against this type. to them a bluff is only something thats part of a landscape.

i like it when players call with a loser and say matter of factly, and a little smug with their read, that they knew they were beat. why call then if so sure? thanks for the bet.

b

[bernie]

when you start going with your read, youll notice another feeling develop....

its a feeling that you just got bluffed. youll look back on your hand, and think, hmmm...yknow...

but you wont be sure. but youll replay the hand, feel and everything, and sometimes realize you made a bad fold. but if youre reads are that strong, this feeling doesnt come up often at all....but when it does, something just will seem wrong a titch into the next hand as the thought of the hand lingers...

and if that feeling comes against a certain player, just call a little more often to reconfirm your read on the players tendency...

when in doubt, call

remember, a good player will get bluffed at times. dont be afraid of getting bluffed on the river....just dont make a habit of it

b

[Dentist]

good take bernie

This is what I'm talking about - I hate being that person who calls, knowing that I'm beat, just to confirm my read.

lately I've been trusting myself more and more, but I only remember a precious few time where I said, you know I'm beat but I'm calling and been wrong and gotten a pot.

- of course, one might say, those few pots you won probably made up for the few bets you lost making the crying call....

And I also miss a fair number of value bets on the river because so often I go back to the theory from a Sklansky article, "think of how many times that you'll only get called if you're beaten."

I agree though - if I trusted my reads, there is no reason I should have called that river bet - I was 99% sure she'd have the flush.

[AceHigh]

"if your read is that strong, lay it down"

If he can read hands that well he shouldn't be playing 3/6.

[bernie]

ive met many excellent hand readers who play LL for whatever reason. whether its comfort with the limit, or they may be building a roll...etc...

i wouldnt undrestimate a LL players hand reading just because hes playing LL.

in fact, some times a great LL hand reader will be able to read hands even easier once they go up in limits. since the range of hands played against him may shrink as some of the ABC play is more predictable.

i think if he's got a good feel for the game, explore it. some have a hard time developing that, and just wait for predictable opponents, then say they can read hands great...

i think he's far ahead of his typical opponents he'll be facing at this point...

b

[Dentist]

I'm certainly not saying I'm like the second coming of Doyle Brunson or have some legendary natural gift.

I just have a reasonably good feel for the game.
Sometimes I'm WAY off, but usually pretty solid.

However, how accurate and precise do your reads have to be to make this type of a laydown? Because just a few mistakes would be pretty costly......

By the way - I play LL because there are only 3 hold games in my B&M
3-6 (sometimes with full kill)
6-12 (weekends only - tough game, but I like it)
and 15-30 (rarely they have 30-60)

Anyway, I'm not good enough and I would care about the money too much in 15-30, so 3-6 and 6-12 are good for me.

If they had a 10-20, I would highly consider it. and if we had an 8-16, that's what I would play.

[AceHigh]

There are 8.5BB in the pot on the river. So you have to be roughly 90% sure you are beaten to fold at this point.

[Louie Landale]

Didn't read the responses.

You can only fold the turn if you SEE a bigger set (you have one out). Call even if you SEE the flush (you have 10 outs).

On the river you can fold confidently if its Mother Theresa. Some others deserve less-confident folds. Almost everybody else deserves AT LEAST a call; some clearly deserve raises.

The fact that this is a somewhat "tricky" player AND that you though it unusual that he bet out on the turn is PLENTY enough, for me at least, to warrant a turn RAISE. That being said, folding is completely out of the question.

Well played.

Perhaps your dilema is this: even though you correctly figured he was more than likely to have a flush than not (and thus raising is out of the question), you need to be VERY confident before you can fold. I count 12bb in the pot when you have to make your river decision. Therefore, he needs to have a flush (or the unlikely big set or a straight) more than 11 times out of 12 before you can fold. Consider all the other hands that he CAN have: he could easily have made AcesUp or TensUp on the turn, or have a screwy hand like KcTd or Ac7d, or he could simply be taking a stab at the paranoid button who could easily have very little. Don't you think all of THAT adds up to more than 1/12th as likely as him having a flush? Yes, it does.

You are supposed to call. You did call. No shame in calling.

- Louie

PS. "Tells" and "putting players on hands" are useful for deciding close or marginal situations. They need to be extremely reliable before you can start throwing away real good hands.