Fun hand [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

SmileyEH

06-22-2005, 01:11 PM

I figured this was standard but just checking up. Villian is a little loose passive preflop. Don't know anything else.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif.
3 folds, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, 1 fold, BB raises, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (4.25 BB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, Hero bets, BB calls, MP1 calls, MP3 folds.

River: (7.25 BB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB bets, MP1 folds, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero caps, BB calls.

Final Pot: 15.25 BB

-SmileyEH

Entity

06-22-2005, 01:18 PM

I probably wouldn't cap the river.

DeuceKicker

06-22-2005, 01:18 PM

I'd bet the flop.

From the flop check, I'd guess BB either has AA or 99 (if I don't have a read that makes me suspect total junk). Obviously AK/AQ bets here, and KK/QQ will often bet representing the A. The river screams 99

Grease

06-22-2005, 01:19 PM

I would probably fire out a bet here on the flop to protect what little hand you have. Any A or K folding would really behoove you.

I would hesitate to bet if the BB knew you were aggressive and might plan to c/r you, but I think that given he raised PF, there are lots of cards you don't want to see on the turn.

Grease

06-22-2005, 01:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I probably wouldn't cap the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not? Are you that afraid of AA or AJ?

Entity

06-22-2005, 01:22 PM

I don't think there's much of a reason to bet this flop here with a "loose passive" raising preflop.

Entity

06-22-2005, 01:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I probably wouldn't cap the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not? Are you that afraid of AA or AJ?

[/ QUOTE ]

What hands does a loose-passive BB play this way on the flop/turn that make sense? He doesn't have KK or QQ and 99 is very unlikely; KK probably doesn't 3-bet.

If there were a 5-bet cap, I'm calling his 3-bet. I don't think 4-betting in this situation is a huge error since it's not a 66% situation but I think you're going to see AA played like this very often from the player mentioned if Smiley's reads are even close to accurate.

Rob

ihardlyknowher

06-22-2005, 01:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I figured this was standard but just checking up. Villian is a little loose passive preflop. Don't know anything else.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif.
3 folds, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, 1 fold, BB raises, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (4.25 BB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, Hero bets, BB calls, MP1 calls, MP3 folds.

River: (7.25 BB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB bets, MP1 folds, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero caps, BB calls.

Final Pot: 15.25 BB

-SmileyEH

[/ QUOTE ]

That is fun. I think I might bet the flop. You have a decent chance of having the best hand and a chance of getting a better hand like QQ or KK to fold. Plus, if you are best, you don't want to give a flush draw or anyone with a K or Q a free card.

SmileyEH

06-22-2005, 01:25 PM

By a little loose passive I mean 35/6 or something.

-SmileyEH

Entity

06-22-2005, 01:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
By a little loose passive I mean 35/6 or something.

-SmileyEH

[/ QUOTE ]

Any non-number reads? Postflop tendencies?

Grease

06-22-2005, 01:26 PM

He was a "little loose passive" PF, and I think unless he was uber LP then the flop really warrents a bet to forgo giving a free card to the multiple draws possible on the board.

SmileyEH

06-22-2005, 01:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
By a little loose passive I mean 35/6 or something.

-SmileyEH

[/ QUOTE ]

Any non-number reads? Postflop tendencies?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, just had like 30 hands in playerview. Nothing else.

-SmileyEH

Entity

06-22-2005, 01:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
He was a "little loose passive" PF, and I think unless he was uber LP then the flop really warrents a bet to forgo giving a free card to the multiple draws possible on the board.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, if he's a "little loose passive" how often do we have the best hand on this flop? And if he's a little loose passive, he tends to call down more often than betting/raising, right? So what advantage does a flop bet give us here in a 4-way, double-broadway, twosuited pot? We're basically hoping he has exactly KQs and that everyone else has no piece of this flop and will fold, right?

Rob

Entity

06-22-2005, 01:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
By a little loose passive I mean 35/6 or something.

-SmileyEH

[/ QUOTE ]

Any non-number reads? Postflop tendencies?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, just had like 30 hands in playerview. Nothing else.

-SmileyEH

[/ QUOTE ]

Eesh. 35/6 isn't really a read over 30 hands -- VPIP and PFR haven't converged much at that point at all. Mention this in the OP next time. If you haven't seen any of his postflop tendencies but think he'd raise JTs/QJs/KJs or QJo/KJo and play it this way postflop, then it's closer to a river cap.

Rob

Grease

06-22-2005, 01:31 PM

The other players aren't necessarily LP. They could have folded a better J, a gutshot, a nekkid spade, or any PP. The first two folding would behoove us greatly.

ihardlyknowher

06-22-2005, 01:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
but I think you're going to see AA played like this very often from the player mentioned if Smiley's reads are even close to accurate.

[/ QUOTE ]

He only said a "little" LP. This could be AK, KJs, or QJs enough times, that being afraid of AA is weak-tight IMO.

Entity

06-22-2005, 01:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but I think you're going to see AA played like this very often from the player mentioned if Smiley's reads are even close to accurate.

[/ QUOTE ]

He only said a "little" LP. This could be AK, KJs, or QJs enough times, that being afraid of AA is weak-tight IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's almost never QJs. Maybe KJs. A 6% PFR usually isn't raising 99 from the BB but PFR hasn't really converged yet so it's hard to say.

There is 1 combination of KJs (K/images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif). There are 3 combinations of AA. If he's aggressive enough to be raising KJs preflop he's probably aggressive enough to be betting this flop with TPGK, and probably doesn't play the turn this way.

I don't think handreading makes it > 50% likely he's playing a hand we beat here on the turn. Do you guys really expect to see someone who is sLP bet-3betting the river with AK?

Calling his 3-bet on the river is hardly weak-tight.

Entity

06-22-2005, 01:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The other players aren't necessarily LP. They could have folded a better J, a gutshot, a nekkid spade, or any PP. The first two folding would behoove us greatly.

[/ QUOTE ]

A bet doesn't offer any protection against gutshots, and gutshots aren't likely to fold anyway. In fact, it's very unlikely that our opponents will fold any hand that you'd like them to fold to a bet on this flop (and yes, I know you think you need to give them the chance to fold, but even tightish opponents are very unlikely to fold hands like KQ/QJ on this flop). Coupled with the fact that you're usually behind the original PFR and unlikely to make him fold a better hand, and I'm not sure it's worth a bet here.

Rob

SmileyEH

06-22-2005, 01:43 PM

Yeah, I don't understand a flop bet at all.

-SmileyEH

ihardlyknowher

06-22-2005, 01:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but I think you're going to see AA played like this very often from the player mentioned if Smiley's reads are even close to accurate.

[/ QUOTE ]

He only said a "little" LP. This could be AK, KJs, or QJs enough times, that being afraid of AA is weak-tight IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's almost never QJs. Maybe KJs. A 6% PFR usually isn't raising 99 from the BB but PFR hasn't really converged yet so it's hard to say.

There is 1 combination of KJs (K/images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif). There are 3 combinations of AA. If he's aggressive enough to be raising KJs preflop he's probably aggressive enough to be betting this flop with TPGK, and probably doesn't play the turn this way.

I don't think handreading makes it > 50% likely he's playing a hand we beat here on the turn. Do you guys really expect to see someone who is sLP bet-3betting the river with AK?

Calling his 3-bet on the river is hardly weak-tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are giving Villain too much credit for being a good thinking player. This is Party 2/4 after all. I think many people could play AK this way, thinking:
"There are 2 jacks on the board. He doesn't have one. He is trying to bluff me. I'll show that f*cker."

There is a reason we 2+2ers make $ playing poker.

SmileyEH

06-22-2005, 01:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but I think you're going to see AA played like this very often from the player mentioned if Smiley's reads are even close to accurate.

[/ QUOTE ]

He only said a "little" LP. This could be AK, KJs, or QJs enough times, that being afraid of AA is weak-tight IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's almost never QJs. Maybe KJs. A 6% PFR usually isn't raising 99 from the BB but PFR hasn't really converged yet so it's hard to say.

There is 1 combination of KJs (K/images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif). There are 3 combinations of AA. If he's aggressive enough to be raising KJs preflop he's probably aggressive enough to be betting this flop with TPGK, and probably doesn't play the turn this way.

I don't think handreading makes it > 50% likely he's playing a hand we beat here on the turn. Do you guys really expect to see someone who is sLP bet-3betting the river with AK?

Calling his 3-bet on the river is hardly weak-tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are giving Villain too much credit for being a good thinking player. This is Party 2/4 after all. I think many people could play AK this way, thinking:
"There are 2 jacks on the board. He doesn't have one. He is trying to bluff me. I'll show that f*cker."

There is a reason we 2+2ers make $ playing poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think a 2/4 player ever thinks like that in my experience. Most players have the same aspirations and fears as all of us.

-SmileyEH

DeuceKicker

06-22-2005, 01:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[What hands does a loose-passive BB play this way on the flop/turn that make sense? He doesn't have KK or QQ and 99 is very unlikely; KK probably doesn't 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I generally include 99 in the 'possible' hands for even weak-tightish players from the big blind. 99 seems to be the cut-off hand as far as pre-flop raising is concerned. I often see players with pretty high PFR% limp in the blinds with 99, but also see lowPFRs raising with it.

I think 99 probably gains a little over AA (in terms of likelihood) on the turn. If BB was slow-playing AAA, he probably doesn't like that the betting is coming from so close to his right, so he either leads out the turn or goes ahead and check-raises.

ihardlyknowher

06-22-2005, 01:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I don't understand a flop bet at all.

-SmileyEH

[/ QUOTE ]

What about the potential of seeing the river card for free if you want or making a semi-bluff if your flop bet gets it HU and another club falls? KK and QQ are possible holdings for villain here and you may get those out with a turn bet.

Entity

06-22-2005, 01:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]

There is a reason we 2+2ers make $ playing poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

And that reason is that we put together a hand logically and try to figure out what the most likely handranges are.

Our guess is that villain is passive. Why are we discounting that when it comes to the river?

Read schneids' "I have a boat, I 3-bet" post in Mid-high for another good example of this. Poker is more about putting our opponents on a reasonable range of hands and weighting our hand's strength against theirs than just saying "[censored] it, I have a boat."

There are lots of villains against whom I cap this river. But an unknown, slightly passive, who check-calls this flop twice doesn't have AK very often here, if at all.

Rob

Entity

06-22-2005, 01:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[What hands does a loose-passive BB play this way on the flop/turn that make sense? He doesn't have KK or QQ and 99 is very unlikely; KK probably doesn't 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I generally include 99 in the 'possible' hands for even weak-tightish players from the big blind. 99 seems to be the cut-off hand as far as pre-flop raising is concerned. I often see players with pretty high PFR% limp in the blinds with 99, but also see lowPFRs raising with it.

I think 99 probably gains a little over AA (in terms of likelihood) on the turn. If BB was slow-playing AAA, he probably doesn't like that the betting is coming from so close to his right, so he either leads out the turn or goes ahead and check-raises.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, I'm around a 12-13% PFR for full ring games and I don't always raise 99 from the BB. You might want to adjust your "cutoff" for what someone who is currently raising half of the hands I raise is probably raising, especially from the BB.

Rob

mscags

06-22-2005, 01:49 PM

Smells like AJ to me. I would fold this pf. Not enough people in the pot to justify playing this imo

SmileyEH

06-22-2005, 01:51 PM

Heh, I just remembered Schneid's post - good eye Entity. I wasn't really paying attention that well in this hand cause, well, I got up like 2 hours ago. I don't think capping is much of a mistake but just calling the 3bet is probably better. The lucksack fish had AA /images/graemlins/smile.gif. Thanks for the replies.

-SmileyEH

Grease

06-22-2005, 01:51 PM

J9s is a pretty good hand, especially with position and slightly LP's.

Remember, hero plays well postflop and has that distinction alone at the table.

SmileyEH

06-22-2005, 01:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Smells like AJ to me. I would fold this pf. Not enough people in the pot to justify playing this imo

[/ QUOTE ]

You need to seriously review your preflop game if you want to fold this. I'm raising if its one limper to me btw.

-SmileyEH

Entity

06-22-2005, 01:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Smells like AJ to me. I would fold this pf. Not enough people in the pot to justify playing this imo

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm more likely to raise this than I am to fold. You should consider loosening up on the Button.

ihardlyknowher

06-22-2005, 01:53 PM

Thanks. I will check out that post. Good thread, gave me lots to think about.

Bill Lumberg

06-22-2005, 02:02 PM

Would a bet on the flop be a semi-bluff? You're pretty sure you don't have the best hand. With that assumption, a semi-bluff is good when you have the combined possibilities of everyone folding and having the best hand. Neither of these are likely. I think the hand was played well, except I would call the 3-bet on the river. You're probably beat.

DeuceKicker

06-22-2005, 02:15 PM

I'd call it a semi-sorta-almost-bluff. The problem is that I'm not pretty sure I don't have the best hand... I'm also not pretty sure I do have the best hand. Betting the flop gives me a better chance to see where I am.

Rightly or wrongly, I was thinking AA or 99 for villain (though AJs is certainly also possible, but in that case he probably plays it like AA). My thinking when betting the flop was to let a slow-played AA go ahead and check-raise me so I can be done with the hand. If BB bets the turn I also fold. There's also a good chance I check behind on the turn, depending on what pops.

Edit: However, after hearing the arguments for checking the flop, and slowing down on the river, they're both probably better than what I was considering.