I make an 87, but there are three opponents left

[MarkGritter]

I haven't played with most of these guys before. Player C is somewhat passive, and will sometimes stand pat with a smooth 9 when I think he shouldn't. Player B might be drawing a little rough, but I haven't seen enough showdowns to be sure.

I figure I need something better than an 87 after the first draw to win here. Do you agree?

Do you like the value bet into three players, one of them pat?

I thought this was pretty standard, although the value bet might be thin... I've seen C fold after standing pat OOP.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Epsom ($1/$2 Triple Draw 2-7)
Powered by UltimateBet

Player A is at seat 0 with $30.
Player B is at seat 1 with $41.50.
Player C is at seat 2 with $52.25.
Hero is at seat 3 with $113.
Player D is at seat 4 with $44.
The button is at seat 4.

Player A posts the small blind of $.50.
Player B posts the big blind of $1.

Player A: -- -- -- -- --
Player B: -- -- -- -- --
Player C: -- -- -- -- --
Hero: 4d 7h Jd 7c 2d
Player D: -- -- -- -- --

First Round:

Player C raises to $2. Hero re-raises to $3.
Player D folds. Player A calls. Player B
calls. Player C calls.

Player A takes 3 cards. Player B takes 2 cards.
Player C takes 1 card. Hero takes 2 cards.

Player A: -- -- -- -- --
Player B: -- -- -- -- --
Player C: -- -- -- -- --
Hero: 4d 7c 2d 3d 8h

Second Round:

Player A checks. Player B checks. Player C
checks. Hero bets $1. Player A calls.
Player B calls. Player C calls.

Player A takes 2 cards. Player B takes 2 cards.
Player C takes 1 card. Hero takes 1 card.

Third Round:

Player A: -- -- -- -- --
Player B: -- -- -- -- --
Player C: -- -- -- -- --
Hero: 4d 7c 2d 3d 8s

Player A checks. Player B checks. Player C
checks. Hero bets $2. Player A calls.
Player B calls. Player C calls.

Player A takes 2 cards. Player B takes 2 cards.
Player C stands pat. Hero stands pat.

Final Round:

Player A: -- -- -- -- --
Player B: -- -- -- -- --
Player C: -- -- -- -- --
Hero: 4d 7c 2d 3d 8s

Player A checks. Player B checks. Player C
checks. Hero bets $2. Player A calls.
Player B folds. Player C calls.

Showdown: (in white)

<font color="white">
Hero shows 8s 7c 4d 3d 2d.
Hero has 8 7 4 3 2.
Player A mucks cards.
(Player A has 8c 7d 6d 5c 3s.)
Player C mucks cards.
(Player C has 9d 5h 4s 3h 2c.)


Hand Summary:

$1 is raked from a pot of $30.
Hero wins $29 with 8 7 4 3 2.
</font>

[timprov]

I would not have drawn on the second draw here.

Value betting smooth 87s is something of an art; I'm not sure if this is a spot I would do it or not. A and B are obviously pretty loose, so you have a good chance of getting at least one call from a worse hand even if C does fold. I think you can definitely bet if you can fold to a raise, or one isn't likely.

[dibbs]

I'd stick with it here, it might be close but if they draw rough/loose in general it makes me want to keep this, if they were all drawing smooth and wouldn't pay off with crap I'd probably break. Right as I type it I feel there my logic is off. Any numbers on what shape your in against some suspected hands?

I'd rarely bet an 87 into that many players but I do think it is a "feel" thing that you were right on about. Nice hand.

[Luv2DriveTT]

I often don't value bet 87xxx heads up, this is just as dangerous with 2 opponents. I recommend reading (or re-reading) TOP's section on river play, its very applicable to TD.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[timprov]

[ QUOTE ]
I often don't value bet 87xxx heads up, this is just as dangerous with 2 opponents. I recommend reading (or re-reading) TOP's section on river play, its very applicable to TD.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not quite so dangerous when two of them have drawn two, though. I hope you'd bet 87 HU all day against someone drawing two.

[Luv2DriveTT]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I often don't value bet 87xxx heads up, this is just as dangerous with 2 opponents. I recommend reading (or re-reading) TOP's section on river play, its very applicable to TD.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not quite so dangerous when two of them have drawn two, though. I hope you'd bet 87 HU all day against someone drawing two.

[/ QUOTE ]

No need to in many situations, because its rare that an inferior hand will call. There is little value in the bet.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[MarkGritter]

I did some work to try to estimate where the 55% mark is, in position, against someone drawing 1 to a 7 or an 8, and put the results in an earlier post. (TOP recommends only value betting if you are a 55% favorite when called, right?)

The two unknowns are what the opponent will bet and what he will call with. Against someone who won't bet an 8 but will call with any 8 or 9 the line is right around 87542. This is what I assume by default, but it may be too loose--- it really depends on knowing your opponent's calling habits.

Against me you can value bet a lot of 9's, since I call too loosely with J's and T's. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Although I should start paying more attention to pot size at the end.

Here I'm really only value betting against the player to my right, I don't expect to get called by either of the other two. Against multiple players drawing one, though, I'm pretty sure I'm not a favorite when called.

[MarkGritter]

[ QUOTE ]
I would not have drawn on the second draw here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where do you draw the line here? 3 opponents drawing one card? Two opponents?

[MarkGritter]

[ QUOTE ]
I often don't value bet 87xxx heads up, this is just as dangerous with 2 opponents. I recommend reading (or re-reading) TOP's section on river play, its very applicable to TD.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm still digesting the "heads up on the end" chapter. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

But, I found TOP rather light on multi-way action in the last round.

My frustration in TD is that most opponents won't raise in the intermediate rounds to drive other players out. Maybe I'll start another thread on that.

[timprov]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would not have drawn on the second draw here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where do you draw the line here? 3 opponents drawing one card? Two opponents?

[/ QUOTE ]

I draw the line when I get played back at. The more opponents there are, the less likely my outs (and theirs) are to be available, which somewhat offsets having a worse hand multiway.