I have top pair, I call.

[Joe Tall]

15/30 Online - table is super loose and mostly passive.

UTG limps, MP1 limps, MP2 limps, MP3 limps, the SB completes and I check w/Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Flop: Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif6 /images/graemlins/club.gif

UTG bets, MP1 call, MP2 calls, SB calls, I call.

Turn: J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

UTG bets, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, SB folds, I call.

River: 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif

UTG bets, all fold to me and I call.

Thoughts?

[aK13]

Fairly standard...I think...

[bobdibble]

[ QUOTE ]
Fairly standard.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[brettbrettr]

I can't find a fold, nh. On the river, after the field folds, I think you have to call hoping to see a mid PP or busted heart draw. I wouldn't think this would be a good spot to overcall, but after everyone else quits I call too.

[Redeye]

I personally couldn't figure out another way to play this hand. Obviously raising the flop doesn't do a thing for us and with the table description, people could be calling with just about anything. On the turn, you're getting like 8.5:1 on the call. You've probably got the best hand a good % of the time, plus with the pot offering you that much on a call, even if you're behind to a bigger queen you're not losing a ton here.

Could we raise the turn and fold to a 3-bet? We are getting a nice overlay from two other callers here that could make up for getting occasionally called by a bigger Q. If there is value here, it has to be somewhat thin though.

On the river, are you folding if UTG is overcalled?

[BWebb]

Are you home, is this an old hand or are you also playing online while in Vegas?

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you home, is this an old hand or are you also playing online while in Vegas?

[/ QUOTE ]

Vegas airport has free wireless! My flight was delayed an hour. WOOOT!

[chief444]

Joe Tall,

This is a pretty standard line for me. The only thing I may do differently at times is lead the turn when it's a draw heavy flop and the draws likely missed. But here, 5-way on the turn, I'm still check/calling down as you did. The only other option I can think of is check/raising the turn if UTG is weak/tight and the other two are really loose. But I don't really like that either. And I suppose betting the river is a decent option as well if you intend to either call or overcall anyway.

I guess since this seems somewhat standard I'm just trying to think of what other options you may see here.

Chief

[BottlesOf]

No one wants a flop bet?

Edit: I may try the c/r myself and then revert to this plan when the bet comes on the left, but I'm surprised everyone sees this as ultra standard.

[Jake (The Snake)]

I think I prefer just betting out as there is no indication from PF action that you will be able to C/R someone from late position.

Also, the way it was played, why not bet out on the turn? It's a pretty easy fold if UTG raises I think while if you are simply called you can feel a little more comfortable that these guys are only drawing.

[chief444]

I'll usually check TP no kicker out of the blinds with so many opponents and such a coordiated flop. Maybe not as standard as I made it sound but not far from it for me. Is that bad?

[BottlesOf]

What does the coordination have to do with it? I would think it makes opponents more likely to call a bet as more draws are out there, and we collect money when we have the best hand. If they suck out, that's poker.

Is my thinking off?

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
What does the coordination have to do with it? I would think it makes opponents more likely to call a bet as more draws are out there, and we collect money when we have the best hand. If they suck out, that's poker.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think coordination has a lot to do with it. If the board were even more coordinated, say 9TQ two-toned I'd lean more towards check/fold. Although getting good odds I may still call. On a QJT single suited board I see this as an easy check/fold. Basically, more coordination lowers your equity here. Decent draws likely being out there combined with the fact that we're not really sure if our hand is best is a definite reason to go passive on the flop the way I see it.

[SA125]

Like I said in the Rory AJo post Joe - I think Tommyesque check-calling down will lose money in the long run unless you can find folds or worse hands that will call you. The only thing debateable is what's the long run?

[imported_stealthcow]

i might be alone here

but when it gets back to you on the flop, there are still 4 others in. i put your chances of having the best hand at this point around 1/2. the chances of your hand being the best on the river (assuming everyone stays in) is probably 1 in 3 or 4, unless you're against a lot of draws and 2nd, 3rd pairs.

so if this is true, shouldn't you c/r the flop and charge everyone else to draw? if you had 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif you would based on putting in money as a 1:2 shot and getting 1:4 on your money, and i dont see how this hand is much different

stealthcow-

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
when it gets back to you on the flop, there are still 4 others in. i put your chances of having the best hand at this point around 1/2.

[/ QUOTE ]

c/r'ing the flop opens us up to a 3-bet which would be very, very bad. The reason I call in this spot is b/c I *might* have the best hand, there are redraws, which I won't fold by raising. I'd like to take a look at the turn--the card and the action--and go from there. Top pair no kicker in this spot doesn't fill me with a whole lot of confidence. Given the action I'm not folding top pair, but I don't think raising is going to do much for us either.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]

c/r'ing the flop opens us up to a 3-bet which would be very, very bad. The reason I call in this spot is b/c I *might* have the best hand, there are redraws, which I won't fold by raising. I'd like to take a look at the turn--the card and the action--and go from there. Top pair no kicker in this spot doesn't fill me with a whole lot of confidence. Given the action I'm not folding top pair, but I don't think raising is going to do much for us either.

[/ QUOTE ]

I shouldn't reply to anyone with 'sadly Boston' in there location, but this is so spot on, it needs to be quoted. Well done!

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

c/r'ing the flop opens us up to a 3-bet which would be very, very bad. The reason I call in this spot is b/c I *might* have the best hand, there are redraws, which I won't fold by raising. I'd like to take a look at the turn--the card and the action--and go from there. Top pair no kicker in this spot doesn't fill me with a whole lot of confidence. Given the action I'm not folding top pair, but I don't think raising is going to do much for us either.

[/ QUOTE ]

I shouldn't reply to anyone with 'sadly Boston' in there location, but this is so spot on, it needs to be quoted. Well done!

[/ QUOTE ]

Now tell us you're not overcalling the river. And, please, continue with the "forum checks."

(FWIW, I'd have traded the 13 run 8th for the 60 BB's I dropped last night.)

[tpir90036]

This flop is almost coordinated enough where I think about check/folding. Given the way it went down though... I don't see what else you can do. Hopefully you were up against KT /images/graemlins/heart.gif.

[Toonces]

My hunch is to bet the flop, but honestly, I'm not sure what I do if I get raised. The way you played it, the limpers got cheap draws, and I have no idea if I'm ahead.

[jjacky]

i am a bit surprised that you are the only one who considers c/f in his post.

unlike almost everybody else i like a fold. i consider the chances to have the best hand to be less than 50% on the flop. and if hero has the best hand, there may very well be two overcards, a flush draw, a gutshot (or an open ender) and a smaller pair out against the top pair, providing 22 outs for the opposition (combined).
that leads me to the conclusion that hero has a pot equity disadvantage and huge reversed implied odds working against him, what looks bad enough to justify a fold.

[Joe Tall]

Closing the action here is key, the pot is too big to fold when it gets back, and there in not much value in raising anywhere, so calling is best as we dont' need to be three-bet.

My opponent showed K /images/graemlins/heart.gif2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif and my had is good.

[tpir90036]

Darn. I gave the opponent too much credit on his kicker /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[MegumiAmano]

[ QUOTE ]
c/r'ing the flop opens us up to a 3-bet which would be very, very bad. The reason I call in this spot is b/c I *might* have the best hand, there are redraws, which I won't fold by raising. I'd like to take a look at the turn--the card and the action--and go from there. Top pair no kicker in this spot doesn't fill me with a whole lot of confidence. Given the action I'm not folding top pair, but I don't think raising is going to do much for us either.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that the math works out as well to call. If you raise, the pot odds become ~6:1 for someone on a flush draw, which is only a 4:1 dog. Is that right? If so, it seems like they'd be correct to call your raise anyway.

What if we change this to having aces, instead of queens? Does the concept of protecting your hand kick in at that point, and you raise to knock out the people who aren't on a flush draw?

[Note: I'm not arguing with you. I just want to make sure that I understand why this is the right play.]

[gasoltub]

[ QUOTE ]

What if we change this to having aces, instead of queens? Does the concept of protecting your hand kick in at that point, and you raise to knock out the people who aren't on a flush draw?


[/ QUOTE ]

No, raising to protect is what you do when you have a good but vulnerable hand AND the raise will give many draws incorrect odds.
A pair of queens is in more need of protection than a pair of aces since no overcard can come to an ace.
So a raise would most often protect you from people with overcards or drawing to two pair and gut shots.