Play this hand from the button?

[gasgod]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney (5/1), Big Blind is t30 (8 handed)

Table is fairly passive.

converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB (t1060)
BB (t1245)
UTG (t1405)
UTG+1 (t695)
MP1 (t1300)
MP2 (t695)
CO (t805)
Hero (t795)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls t30, MP1 calls t30, MP2 calls t30, <font color="#666666">1 fold </font>, Hero ??

Should I fold, limp, or raise? (Please don't reply "Yes" /images/graemlins/smile.gif)

GG

[lastchance]

Raising is dumb. Folding is weak-tight, but you've only got so many BB.

I either limp or fold. On L1, easy limp. With 200 extra chips, easy limp.

I fold here, partly because I can't play postflop.

[Karak567]

Agreed, fold, with the size of your stack, no reason to call off 30 chips here on a hand that won't hit most of the time.

[gildwulf]

What about ATs?

[KingDan]

The a5 call isnt terrible, and I call the A10s hand. Just don't fall in love with TP.

[lastchance]

Better. Probably worth a limp here.

[gasgod]

Well, I wouldn't ask except that I'm in position, and there are 3 limpers. That would favor a limp, wouldn't it?

GG

[PapiChulo503]

I think im limping here. If you hit your flush you are well disguised and in position, might make a nice chunk of change.

I could also make an argument for folding since its still early and why get yourself in trouble this early in the game?

[bluewilde]

I tend to fold hands like these, and with so many people suggesting that a call is OK, I gather I'm playing too tight. So (at the $5+1 SNGs), what should I be doing with suited aces in general (specifically during the first three blind levels)? Can I play any Axs from the button, the CO, how far back? How low can I go playing suited aces in early position? Which hands can I play to a raise?

Blue

[lastchance]

Playing suited aces in EP is just asking for trouble. Playing Suited Aces anywhere not in LMP or later behind limpers (more than one) is bad poker.

I actually really don't like suited aces at all. Flush draws are obvious, and you need implied odds. No way I'm limping with suited aces on L3 at all, too much of my stack.

Without AKs or AQs, I really doubt playing Axs in EP or behind raises is any good at all.

[GrekeHaus]

What sort of flop are you hoping for with this hand?

1) A made flush--don't happen very often and when it does, you're not going to get paid off.

2) A flush draw--you'll only make it 1/3 of the time and if anybody else has something, you'll be paying a TON to make it. You might even have to fold if they push you out. If they don't have anything, then you might end up winning a small pot.

3) A pair of aces--nobody's paying you off unless they have an ace or a hand that can beat a pair of aces. If they have an ace, it will usually be a better ace. If it's a worse ace, you'll end up chopping a lot.

4) Trips/Two Pair--these are the only real flops you can hope for which might win you a big pot.

A5s is a hand that is destined to either win a small pot or lose a huge one. Since the only way you're winning a big pot with this is trips or two pair, you may as well be playing any two here.

[adanthar]

Yes, limp this.

[ QUOTE ]
Since the only way you're winning a big pot with this is trips or two pair, you may as well be playing any two here.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a 5+1. The implied odds are 'some guy's stack' on every flop he hits. And, for that matter, I'd also call 75s here.

[drapes]

-AT are all easy folds for me here.

I like to sit tight early.

[gasgod]

The fact that It drew a mix of opinions convinces me that I was right to ask the forum. It seems like it's a close decision.

I agonized for all of 5 seconds, and mucked it. The complete HH:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB (t1060)
BB (t1245)
UTG (t1405)
UTG+1 (t695)
MP1 (t1300)
MP2 (t695)
CO (t805)
Hero (t795)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls t30, MP1 calls t30, MP2 calls t30, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t150) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets t30</font>, UTG+1 calls t30, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, SB calls t30.

Turn: (t240) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets t30</font>, UTG+1 calls t30, SB calls t30.

River: (t330) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets t30</font>, UTG+1 folds, SB folds.

Final Pot: t360

Obviously, I wound up wishing I had called. Thanks to all who commented.

GG

[adanthar]

Pop quiz: pretend you played it.

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: (t180) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets t30</font>, UTG+1 calls t30, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, Hero...

[/ QUOTE ]

[lastchance]

I suck at playing postflop, so take my answer with a grain of salt. I call.

[bluewilde]

In response to adanthar's proposed quiz, I think, had you called and seen the same flop action, the hand plays itself until the river. With 7-1 odds on the flop bet, easy call with 9 outs to the nut flush, 3 non-spade 4s to a likely best straight, and 3 As (maybe count as 0.5-1 full outs). Again on the turn, great odds=call. My question is how much you can bet on the river and get callers. Sure it depends on your knowledge of the other guys in the hand, maybe 100-150 (I'm thinking somewhere around 1/3 of the pot)? More? Less?

[RobGW]

Of course this is an easy call. The real question is do you raise with it? On the flop or on the turn? Nobody is showing a whole lot of strength so it may be yours for the taking without a showdown. I am not saying that I would, but I was interested to see if anyone else would.

[RobGW]

As for the PF limp I guess it depends on how well you play post flop. If you cant let go of TP then just fold. If you can hit your A and still fold to action then I guess you could play it. I tend to play these hands in the right situations (like this). $30 isn't going to kill me but if I hit it I can get some chips to work with. I hate getting to the bubble short stacked. I like to take calculated chances to get the big stack so I can wield it like a club later. Anyways, I don't think there is a right or wrong answer. It just depends on your post flop skills.

[bluewilde]

With the tournament still 8-handed and your having a modest stack, I don't know if you should try being too creative here. Certainly it looks like a large enough reraise could take this down on the flop or the turn, and you have some decent outs if you are called. However, if you fire and miss completely, you're stack is hurtin'. I think it's too early to risk putting yourself in a fairly desperate situation (reducing yourself to around 400 chips) to win a modest-sized pot (about 200). So, I call these small raises because I have a good draw, but would be very cautious about calling any larger bets/raises as the hand progresses; what do you guys think?

[gasgod]

Right or wrong, in practice I would just call. At this level (5/1) I think I will get paid if I hit.

GG

[wuwei]

[ QUOTE ]
Pop quiz: pretend you played it.

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: (t180) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets t30</font>, UTG+1 calls t30, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, Hero...

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

The solid arguments for raising are:

1. a bet of 30 is pretty damn weak, a raise might take this down.
2. raising disguises your hand when you hit
3. raising buys you free cards and such when you have nice position like this.

[adanthar]

OK...it's a 932 flop, with a minbet and a call to you in a decent pot and no indication anyone caught any of that. It's also a 5+1 which means that you will get a turn free card when you raise roughly 98% of the time with a 2% margin of error. Oh, and you have 12 outs to the nuts (65 doesn't count, thx) and 3 aces that probably count for at least 2 more.

This is a clear raise (I'd make it about 150) and not at all close*, because on top of everything else it'll be enough to fold everything up to a 9 and quite possibly some nines. It's hands like these you have to learn to play strong to succeed higher.

Holla.

*eh, it might be close if you knew they'd minbet the turn too. You don't, so you raise.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pop quiz: pretend you played it.

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: (t180) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets t30</font>, UTG+1 calls t30, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, Hero...

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

The solid arguments for raising are:

1. a bet of 30 is pretty damn weak, a raise might take this down.
2. raising disguises your hand when you hit
3. raising buys you free cards and such when you have nice position like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wuwei, you're like a 9th grader sitting in a 3rd grade class. Scram! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif Good analysis though. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Good post Adanthar. Good reason not to split this forum in two.

Scuba

[adanthar]

Bump because the whole first page is filled with totally useless posts right now so why not

[45suited]

1) After 3 limpers on level 2 in a game at 22 or lower, I'm calling with A5s on the button every time. EASY CALL.

2) Depending on reads (hard since it's L2) on that flop I would either call or raise, but if I raised, it would be a little more than 150. Probably 200 since the game is a 5+1. I'd be fine with taking the pot now, but a raise to 200 lets these fish know that I'm not playing around. Sometimes I would just call here though if I thought any of my opponents were very tricky or aggressive.

***This is what bugs me about the when people talk about the lower level buy-in SNGs. People rightfully say that most of the players suck but then they are afraid to call A5s on the button after 3 limpers on level 2??? Your opponents suck, this hand has the potential to triple you up at low risk!

[microbet]

[ QUOTE ]
***This is what bugs me about the when people talk about the lower level buy-in SNGs. People rightfully say that most of the players suck but then they are afraid to call A5s on the button after 3 limpers on level 2??? Your opponents suck, this hand has the potential to triple you up at low risk!

[/ QUOTE ]

RE: The paradox

Especially at the $6s I think you can almost have +ROI by starting the games and going to sleep, but on the other hand you should be able to really get paid off when you get into pots cheaply and hit something.

I don't know what's best, but it may well be different in the $6s than the $11s. I think those two are the most different of all adjascent buyins.

[gasgod]

[ QUOTE ]
Especially at the $6s I think you can almost have +ROI by starting the games and going to sleep, but on the other hand you should be able to really get paid off when you get into pots cheaply and hit something.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have fallen asleep twice in the last month, and finished third both times.

GG

[HesseJam]

1) I call and concurr with Andanthar that it's being the 5+1s makes this a nobrainer because you can get paid off.

2) I am not sure if a flop raise is a good idea here. There is some risk that you are up against a mistakenly slow played set (it´s the 5+1s!) and you'll get reraised or called (it's the 5+1s!). If called, you might not have the odds for the river when the set goes all-in on the turn.

I go with the easy poker rule that you should not raise a hand where you hate to be reraised. I'd preserve the free shot here.

[45suited]

I know what you're saying about just calling (since it's a 5+1), sometimes I would just call myself. Your comment about being called more in a 5 is well taken, that's why I would tend to raise to 200 instead of 150. That should be enough to get their attention. But if I'm re-raised, I'm not giving this hand up after raising the flop. I'm going all the way with it. Way too many outs...

[HesseJam]

You are right, I missed the straight draw and the slight TP winning chance.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
OK...it's a 932 flop, with a minbet and a call to you in a decent pot and no indication anyone caught any of that. It's also a 5+1 which means that you will get a turn free card when you raise roughly 98% of the time with a 2% margin of error. Oh, and you have 12 outs to the nuts (65 doesn't count, thx) and 3 aces that probably count for at least 2 more.

This is a clear raise (I'd make it about 150) and not at all close*, because on top of everything else it'll be enough to fold everything up to a 9 and quite possibly some nines. It's hands like these you have to learn to play strong to succeed higher.

Holla.

*eh, it might be close if you knew they'd minbet the turn too. You don't, so you raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fine! I'll ask the questions all you guys aren't asking (and should be).

Adanthar, how do you play if...

1) Your t150 raise is reraised to t300 (or more) before the turn card. It's just you and villain, others folded. What's your line? Or,

2) Let's say your t150 raise is called by one player. The turn is a blank, and villain leads into you for 1/2-2/3 pot. What's your line?

[drgnfly8]

I like calling better than raising. If somebody has a lower flush draw, you are keeping them in to pay you off when the flush hits. You said the table is passive. So, somebody could easily be slowplaying a set, but is unlikely to raise with trash, so you should be able to draw cheaply until the river.

If they are slowplaying a set, let them give you a cheap draw and make a mistake by allowing you to complete the flush and burn them on the river if the board doesn't pair. If you raise, one of two things happens. Either everybody folds and you win a small pot - This is OK, but you should get paid off much more if the flush comes in. Second case is they reraise eliminating all your other callers and forcing you to either fold losing your raise chips, or else call taking a 4-1 shot on hitting the flush. Much better to not be put to that choice.

On the river, bet pot size or slightly more. Any flush will call, and the set may think you are trying to buy the pot from the scare cards. At $5+1, I have no doubts if you went all-in at the end, half the time some idiot would still call even with top pair or two pair.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
I like calling better than raising. If somebody has a lower flush draw, you are keeping them in to pay you off when the flush hits. You said the table is passive. So, somebody could easily be slowplaying a set, but is unlikely to raise with trash, so you should be able to draw cheaply until the river.

If they are slowplaying a set, let them give you a cheap draw and make a mistake by allowing you to complete the flush and burn them on the river if the board doesn't pair. If you raise, one of two things happens. Either everybody folds and you win a small pot - This is OK, but you should get paid off much more if the flush comes in. Second case is they reraise eliminating all your other callers and forcing you to either fold losing your raise chips, or else call taking a 4-1 shot on hitting the flush. Much better to not be put to that choice.

On the river, bet pot size or slightly more. Any flush will call, and the set may think you are trying to buy the pot from the scare cards. At $5+1, I have no doubts if you went all-in at the end, half the time some idiot would still call even with top pair or two pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

If we agree that this is a $5+1, then your thinking here is skewed. These players play with level 1 thinking. That means, "I have a hand." They will not be concerned with the flush on the board. And if they were concerned, betting should disguise.

What's wrong with winning a small pot? As stated earlier, disguise your hand by betting. If you play weak, and then strong when the flush completes, this is more of a tell, no? But if you play strong, and then play strong, this looks like you're trying to buy. Generally, building the pot into your flush draw is more of a payoff, than "waiting" for your flush to hit (although, I am already contradicting myself).

Finally, I don't think lower levels are smart enough to slow play a set (unless they just are too docile to bet, then they are genius). IMO, they would probably overbet pots. You are giving these players far too much credit.

In the end, you likely have better than 4:1 odds on the turn and the river. That includes flush draw, gutshot straight draw, and the ace (overcard). That's about 15 total undiscounted outs. That's about 2:1 (as I said, undiscounted).

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
Fine! I'll ask the questions all you guys aren't asking (and should be).

Adanthar, how do you play if...

1) Your t150 raise is reraised to t300 (or more) before the turn card. It's just you and villain, others folded. What's your line? Or,

2) Let's say your t150 raise is called by one player. The turn is a blank, and villain leads into you for 1/2-2/3 pot. What's your line?

[/ QUOTE ]

In a $5 neither of those things should come up*, but #1's an easy push and #2 depends on the player and the bet amount. In a $5 I may just fold; in a $109 I can push semibluff. It depends.

*it is far more likely that he will bet t30 again on the turn, lol.