Call, call, call.

[pufferfish]

$1/$2 - tightish, a little aggressive.

I open-raise 1UTG with Ah Qd. Folded to SB who 3-bets. I call and it's HU.

Flop: Ts 4c 4h

SB bets, I call.

Turn: Ts 4c 4h - Ad

SB bets, I call.

Since he 3-bet out of his SB I'm really worried that he may have AA or AK. I still feel like a wimp for not raising though.

River: Ts 4c 4h Ad - 5s

SB bets, I call, yawn.

Results to follow. Any comments would be appreciated.

[Dynasty]

Since he 3-bet out of his SB I'm really worried that he may have AA or AK.

You're playing too scared.

Call the turn and raise the river.

[Ed Miller]

Since he 3-bet out of his SB I'm really worried that he may have AA or AK. I still feel like a wimp for not raising though.

You should not be raising the turn here... you should just call to allow an underpair or undercards to continue to bluff. You probably should raise the river for value, though.

[Fitz]

Interesting, I would have popped the turn to take control of the hand, then bet the river. If you call the turn and wait to raise the river, don't you risk missing a bet if your opponent checks the river.

[Ed Miller]

don't you risk missing a bet if your opponent checks the river

Don't you risk missing a bet if your opponent folds to your turn raise? What hand could your opponent have that a) you beat, and b) doesn't get severely spooked when you raise the turn when the Ace hits?

[Vehn]

I think raising the river is terrible.

[polarbear]

Why call the flop? If the SB isn't crazy and has normal 3-betting standards, like AKs, AA, KK, or QQ, calling serves no purpose.

You have 3 outs against KK and QQ, 3 outs plus some more split pot chances if the board double-pairs against AKs, and 0 outs against AA. Considering there's little money in the pot, you should fold. You can't bluff your opponent off a big pair, so there is no way to win the pot without drawing out.

If you think the SB might of been making a move with his 3-bet, and AQ-high might be the best hand, then I can see a reason not to fold, but there are very few players that do this.

[pufferfish]

SB showed Ks Kd. My Ah Qd held on a board of [ Ts 4c 4h Ad 5s].

I think not knowing this player made it much more difficult to play this hand. I open-raise 1UTG and it's folded to him. He 3-bets getting the BB out and isolating me. How much of a hand do you need to do that?

Being a legit re-raise, I kinda feel like I squeaked by. I wasn't gonna fold that flop since it was HU. Maybe it's wimpy, but I probably would have folded on the turn if the Ace hadn't come.

Thank you for the responses.
pf

[Louie Landale]

Well, this is the problem with "trouble" hands.

You CAN, BTW, lay this one down on the flop since you are almost certainly beat AND are VERY unlikely to get him to fold later (such as if the turn is a K and he folds his JJ or the turn is a J and he folds his AK: not likely enough).

On the turn either YOU are way ahead or HE is way ahead, and the behind hand is very unlikley to draw out. Also, %age wise your hand really isn't THAT good. Also, if you raise he may NOT call with KK, but you may get a bet on the river if you flat call. Looks like a great time to flat call to me.

Well played.

- Louie

[JTG51]

A 3 bet preflop in this situation is rarely going to be an 'isolation' raise. He's usually got the goods.

Why would someone want to isolate an EP raiser who has position on them?

[pufferfish]

Why would someone want to isolate an EP raiser who has position on them?

Say the blind has a pair, any pair, and decides to take a chance that the EP raiser doesn't. On paper, it sounds like a pretty good play to me.

[Rube]

I'd probably fold on the flop unless I had a very good idea of how the SB plays. You're almost certainly behind, and you may be drawing nearly dead. If you call on the flop, you should have already have plan on how to play the turn. Would you have played the same if a Queen fell on the turn? What about a blank, were you planning on calling him down?

Once you call on the flop, I think just calling on the turn is fine. I would raise the river though. It's likely that he'll now call with any underpair (which he may of folded if you raise on the turn), he probably won't reraise with a big ace, and AA is unlikely since the other two aces are out.

[pufferfish]

I'd probably fold on the flop unless I had a very good idea of how the SB plays.

Perhaps I'm being influenced by my experience at short-handed tables. I'm just not going to fold on this flop when it is HU.

If you call on the flop, you should have already have plan on how to play the turn. Would you have played the same if a Queen fell on the turn? What about a blank, were you planning on calling him down?

Plan, planning? This may be part of the reason I'm still playing the "little" limits. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif If the turn had been any thing except for a Queen or Ace, I probably would have folded. Otherwise, yea, just call him down.

I would raise the river though.

I think Dynasty was the first to suggest this and it feels like the right way to play it.

[Homer]

When I first read the suggestion of raising on the river, it made no sense to me. Now that I have had some time to think about it, it still makes no sense to me. Let's say your opponent will only three-bet out of the blinds with TT+/AQ+. On the river, there are:

-- 12 ways for you to be behind (TT - 3 combos, AA - 1 combo, AK - 8 combos)
-- 6 ways for you to be tied (AQ - 6 combos)
-- 15 ways for you to be ahead (JJ - 6 combos, QQ - 3 combos, KK - 6 combos)

I will make the assumption that only AA and TT will reraise on the river, and all other hands will call. I also assume that you will call if three-bet on the river.

If these assumptions are followed, then when you raise on the river:

4/33 of the time, you lose 2 additional BB's
8/33 of the time, you lose 1 additional BB
6/33 of the time, you break-even
15/33 of the time, you gain 1 additional BB

Add these up and your river raise has an EV of -.0303 BB's.

If you change the underlying assumptions the EV will change. For example, if the three-betting standards of your opponent out of the blinds are looser than what I suggested, the EV of raising the river will increase. If your opponent will fold pocket pairs (JJ-KK) to your river raise, the EV of the play will decrease. If you are willing to fold to a reraise on the river, the EV of the play will increase.

In any event, it seems that raising the river has a -EV, unless you are willing to fold to a three-bet from your opponent. Are you advocates of raising the river suggesting that the poster fold to a three-bet?

-- Homer

[Vehn]

I got about halfway through doing this, got bored, and hoped that someone else would. On behalf of my laziness I thank you.

Another thing to consider is for the SB to bet QQ or JJ on the river for value here is terrible. Betting KK is razor-thin and probably not a good idea. I think there's also a significant chance (well, maybe not at a $1/$2 online game) that the SB folds JJ QQ KK here for a river raise. So essentially I think the river raise sucks, but am prepared to be properly berated and labeled weak-tight.

[tewall]

This is obvious, but your EV will only go up if you fold to a 3 bet if you assume your opponent will only 3 bet really good hands.

[Dynasty]

I think you're underestimating what an opponent will 3-bet out of the small blind with in order to get a hand heads up in an aggressive game.

Even in your ultra-tight scenario, the raise is barely -EV. In an aggressive game, I would expect other hands to be 3-betting hands including 99, 88, KQs, and maybe AJs.

Are you advocates of raising the river suggesting that the poster fold to a three-bet?

Of course, you should fold to the 3-bet if you think this opponent would only do it with a full-house.

[Dynasty]

Another thing to consider is for the SB to bet QQ or JJ on the river for value here is terrible. Betting KK is razor-thin and probably not a good idea.

I'd bet the river with all those hands everytime. The bet is even easier if your opponent is so passive that he won't raise the river with AQ.

KK is a clear value bet when your opponent is just sitting there and calling. JJ has the additional benefit of getting better hands to fold on the river. The same players who won't raise their AQ on the river may also weakly fold KK or QQ thinking that their opponent wouldn't keep on betting if they couldn't beat the Ace on the board. QQ has some of the advantages of both hands.

[Dynasty]

Why would someone want to isolate an EP raiser who has position on them?

If you 3-bet in the small blind in this situation, there are many players who will automatically think "He must have AA or KK to 3-bet". So, you 3-bet some of the time with pairs 99 and lower. Then, when the flop comes T,4,4, you bet and they fold their AK/AQ 6-outer. Or of they have JJ, they fold when the Ace comes and they think you must be able to beat the Ace since you keep betting.

[Vehn]

I think you're strongly overestimating what a typical $1/$2 player 3 bets an EP raise from the small blind with.

[Dynasty]

The stakes aren't relevent. The game was described as aggressive.

[JTG51]

So, you 3-bet some of the time with pairs 99 and lower.

Agreed. I don't think I was very clear in my original post. I thought pufferfish was implying that the SB could be isolating him with a hand worse than AQ. I think you'll agree that is not going to be the case very often.

I'm sure you'll also agree that AQ will have less than 6 outs a significant portion of the time on a T 4 4 flop against a SB 3-bet.

[Vehn]

I think you're strongly overestimating what a typical player 3 bets an EP raise from the small blind with.

[pufferfish]

I thought pufferfish was implying that the SB could be isolating him with a hand worse than AQ.

Actually, I wasn't implying that, just stating fact. OK, maybe I sucked on this hand. I just wanted some advice. /forums/images/icons/frown.gif

OTOH, I will try this (pair in SB and folded to me off an EP raiser the next time I can). /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[JTG51]

I wouldn't say you sucked on this hand at all. I think everyone, including me, thought you played it OK.

I was just questioning the thought process. I'm only trying to point out that a SB 3-bet will be a hand that dominates AQ most of the time.

[pufferfish]

I think you're strongly overestimating what a typical player 3 bets an EP raise from the small blind with.

True, but I have seen some crap in this spot. Truth, I was lost and didn't know what to do, so I called it down.

[pufferfish]

I was just questioning the thought process.

Online, sometimes I don't think I just play. That and not being able to express myself very well, sigh.

Thanks for the input. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[Bob T.]

I still remember your post where both the small and big blind had 77. That post has won me lots of pots.

Thanks.

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[rigoletto]

I think you're strongly underestimating what a typical 1/2 player will fold /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

[KSU78]

I guess some players, as evident to some of the replys to the original post, do have suicidal tendencies.

[KSU78]

It is my opinion that you played this hand very poorly to be quite honest with you. In fact, it may have been me that you were up against. First off, to raise UTG with AQos is not a good play. If you get re-popped, you're surely playing against AKs, AA, KK, or possibly QQ based upon your position. You are automatically behind and at a severe disadvantage as you have only 3 outs at best (unless you hit perfect-perfect). If you're up against AA or AKs, you're beat. If you're up against KK or QQ, you have 3 outs. Second, the flop missed you completely. You have 7-to-1 odds against making your hand by the river after the flop and you could easily be drawing dead. Third, and this goes against the conventional wisdom presented by other posters herein, when you hit your 3 outter on the turn you should have raised then and there. You need to do two things: 1) try to win the pot now or 2) find out the strength of your opponent's hand. Wait 'til the river to raise is plainly a very dangerous (and dumb) play. By raising on the turn, you stand the chance of losing no more than what you would expect to lose should your opponent bet out on the river and you call.

I was reading somewhere where either Sklansky or Malmuth wrote that he thought too many players get too scared to bet when an ace comes on the turn or the flop. This hand is a corallary to that discussion.

[Dynasty]

First off, to raise UTG with AQos is not a good play. If you get re-popped, you're surely playing against AKs, AA, KK, or possibly QQ based upon your position.

Raising with AQ UTG should definitely be your default play in almost any type of game. You can't start limping with AQ simply because you fear gettng 3-bet by a better hand.

when you hit your 3 outter on the turn you should have raised then and there. You need to...try to win the pot

Why does he did to win the pot immediately? If his opponent will continue to bet with KK, what value is there in making him fold. The last thing I want to do is get KK (or any pocket pair which can't beat AQ) to fold to a turn raise when they will at least check-call the river. Your throwing away money by making KK fold to a turn raise.

[JTG51]

First off, to raise UTG with AQos is not a good play.

I'm surprised how often I hear people say this. I think AQ is an auto raise UTG almost all the time. Sure, if you get 3 bet you may be in trouble. You'll also get cold callers with lots of hands that you dominate like AJ, AT, and KQ. Also, just limping UTG often leads to a multiway pot. I don't really want to play AQ out of position against 5 or 6 players.

Second, the flop missed you completely.

I agree with you here. I was surprised that almost everyone liked the flop call. I think there are just too many times that you are drawing to 3 or less outs after the flop. I'd fold most of the time here.

Once he called on the flop though, I think the turn and river calls were fine.

[KSU78]

Who said anything about limping? Raising UTG with AQos is not in my game plan. Calling or folding, yes. Raising, no. (Folding=1, calling=0, raising=-1). For me, there are only handful of playable hands in that position. Even then, if hand is part of the game theory plan, I may not raise if those tactics are needed. You will think that to be too tight but I can't lose what I don't put in the middle. However, if I were first in from middle position, a raise would be in order.

You mean to say that you don't buy into the philosophy that the first priority is to win the hand immediately?

[Dynasty]

You mean to say that you don't buy into the philosophy that the first priority is to win the hand immediately?

No. Why would I buy into that philosophy? The first priority is to maximize EV. In that heads-up spot, you gain quite a bit by making sure KK doesn't fold to a turn raise and puts at least one bet into the pot on the river.

There was a good thread on mid-stakes a few weeks ago called something like "A hand against Roy Cooke". Hero raised UTG with AQo. Cooke 3-bet and got it heads-up. The flop was Ace,x,y. There was lots of good discussion in that thread about not wanting to win the pot immediately by getting pocket pairs KK-88 to fold to a bet or checkraise.

[pufferfish]

I'm surprised that the "flop folders" don't give any credence to the fact that this was HU.

Are you really going to give up that easily? If I noticed that behavior I would definitely try to exploit it.

It cost me 1 SB to see the turn. I think it's worth it if only to serve notice that you can't be run over. Not my fault the Ace hit. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

I still and forever like Dynasty's (and others) idea of raising the river. It's worth the 1 BB just to keep from feeling like a wimp. Of course, I'm not playing with my rent money either.

[Pollux2]

Dynasty,
you posted a hand awhile back that is sort of similar.

you had JJ and the flop was K-high, you bet into your opponent on the flop, turn and river (catching a J on the river)

you said it was a poor play that your opponent did not raise you on the flop or turn with his weak K and that it was his own fault that you hit your 2-outer.

am i misunderstanding something or did you just change the way you viewed these type of heads up situations??

[Vehn]

Calling on the flop to fold on the turn if you don't spike an A or Q is a bad idea. You don't have the pot odds to take one off with a 6 outer.

[KSU78]

You may not understand this one. In a one-on-one contest, I would tend to agree with your call on the flop. There is a big difference between heads up play in a full ring game and heads up play one-on-one.

[pufferfish]

You may not understand this one.

There are many things I don't understand.

Say you were in that hand with KK.

I raise UTG with my AQo, folded to you in the SB. You re-raise and the BB folds.

I see it's HU. I re-raise - what are you gonna do?

The flop comes T44 rainbow and I bet/raise you - what are you gonna do?

Ace on the turn - have you folded yet?

An astute SB, knowing that I will raise a big Ace, could take advantage by playing any pair. If he can get it HU and know that I will fold if the flop doesn't contain an A or K, can run over me. Just like I will look to run over people that play like this.

[Ed Miller]

I completely disagree with you on both your points. AQo is simply too good a hand to be routinely folding... it is not a marginal hand. AJo and KQo are marginal hands UTG... but AQo is not. I think you should revisit your "game plan" because you are routinely making a significant mistake.

You will think that to be too tight but I can't lose what I don't put in the middle.

It is too tight... and mistakes from playing too tightly are just as costly as mistakes from playing too loosely. If you were to fold every hand preflop, you would be a huge loser.

You mean to say that you don't buy into the philosophy that the first priority is to win the hand immediately?

Often the correct strategy is to win a hand immediately. But sometimes it is not... if your opponent is drawing dead (or calling without proper pot odds for his weak draw) then winning the hand immediately can be a big mistake.

[Louie Landale]

There is talk about raising the river. The main reason to wait until the river to raise with your hand is that the SB is a LOT less likely to 3-bet the river than 3-bet the turn, primarily because there are a LOT more hands you could have made to beat him on the river. If the board pairs you COULD have made trips, and if it doesn't you almost always COULD have made the straight that matches that card.

Thus, waiting until the river to raise reduces how much you lose when its clearly the wrong thing to do.

- Louie

[pufferfish]

Thus, waiting until the river to raise reduces how much you lose when its clearly the wrong thing to do.

Thanks Louie, I understand. I appreciate the input.

pf

[pufferfish]

Instead of having AQo in this hand I had 8's. I saw it go HU and decided to play with you.

Did you fold on the turn? If so I just bought the hand. You have a target on your forehead and I hope you re-buy when you run out of money.

I really don't see much difference between a HU match and HU between 2 pre-flop raisers. You either fold the other person off or get as much money out of the hand as you can.

I clearly did neither, which .. is .. why .. I posted .. the .. hand.

cheers,
pf