High ante stud/8

[Cooling Heels]

The 2/10 stud8 game spread at The Orleans has a different structure
from what we see in the midwest, so one can reason that starting
requirements and raising situations will be different on 3rd street.

The common spread limit game in the midwest is no-ante, $2 bring-in,
$2 to $10 anytime. Sometimes the game is played no-ante, $2 bring-in,
$2 to $5 through 6th, $2 to $10 on the river. My general strategy is
to muck all high hands except for trips or a pair of aces, and to start
with 3 wheel cards, 3 babies with an ace, 3 babies to a straight of
one gapper, and 3 babies with flush potential. Position to the bring-in
and ability to limp given the current players will change the starting
requirements. BTW, a pair of aces is a scary starting hand, they tend
to win small pots and lose big pots.

The Orleans game has a $1 ante, making ante steals and late position
limps with marginal lows more attractive. Do most players raise $10 with
an ace up, 2 small cards in the hole? Is a $10 bet almost mandatory on
4th after catching another related small card? Do high hands take on more value if you have the disipline to quickly dump them when the low boards turn spooky?

[Andy B]

You're probably playing a little too tight in the no-ante game. Do you really muck 632 for the bring-in?

It is true that Aces will tend to win small pots and lose big pots. Many of those small pots will be sweeps, which are very profitable, even heads-up. And if you see a large, multi-way pot developing, you might get the idea that one pair isn't going to have a lot of equity, so your Aces should frequently be discarded around fifth street unless you've developed, say, a quality low draw.

The $2/10 game with a $1 ante is somewhat similar in structure to a $30/60 game with a $5 ante. In the $2/10 game, the maximum bet is going to be somewhat smaller relative to the ante and bring in, so your implied odds may not be quite as good. On the other hand, you can bet more on the early rounds, so you may be able to shut people out if you so choose.

I've never played in this game. My experience in playing games $6/12 and smaller (and bigger games for that matter) is that ante-stealing isn't that big of a factor. If you can steal the antes in this game, by all means do so, but I'm going to guess that you'll get the opportunity every ten hours or so.

I wouldn't be making $10 bets on third and fourth streets if those bets will chase people out and I have a hand that wants action. With a strong three-card low, I want people in, so I might make it $6, or I might limp in and then re-raise on the same round. If you have a strong draw on fourth street, you should bet, but bet small enough that people will call. With Aces, I'd probably bet the maximum right away. Of course, you don't want to be entirely predictable. Once there's some money in the pot, I'd bet the maximum more or less every time.

And yeah, you're going to have to learn how to play hands like two Kings and two Queens. These are unplayable when high-low is played cards speak/no qualifier. They become playable in stud/8 because they have scoop potential when the low hands bust out. If you have a high pair against a couple of low hands that are showing straight possibilities on fourth street, that's the time to get out (it took about my 25th reading of Ray's book for that to sink in). The less coordinated their boards, the further you can take the hand, but once someone makes a low, you're playing for half the pot, and you only have one lousy pair. High pairs are profitable hands (I would guess that you should probably play them at least some of the time in your no-ante game), but you have to know how to play them.

Read Ray Zee's book (I imagine you have). From what he's posted here, I don't think it makes a whole lot of difference what the ante structure of the game is. You're going to have to make a hand, and what is playable and what isn't doesn't change much.

[Cooling Heels]

I do play the no-ante game pretty tight, but I will
play any 6 low, and some 7 lows. I actually like
678 for a limp if the 5's are live and the 8 is in the
hole. This is an easy hand to dump on 4th, and unlike
267, I'm not still holding it in a raising war on 6th
wishing it had been mucked.

In a spread limit game I like to bet $5 on 3rd and 4th,
then $10 the rest of the way. Varying the bet allows
the other players insight into my hand, so I tend to
bet the same regardless of the hand. I usually make an
exception for paired aces tho, because the last thing you
want is 4 guys with low draws.

My copy of Zee's book is dog-eared, one hopes the other
guys at Canterbury don't own it. BTW, I made it out
there twice during the Xmas season on the 4/8 stud8 game
was very good, with a few players dropping $500 playing medium pairs and 8 lows.. Then I stopped in a week ago, on a Saturday, and the game was just awful. Twice the bring-in was folded to me, and the other guys all played good starting hands and raising when
it was the right thing to do. Played for 30 minutes then
switched to a 3/6 stud game. The mix of players varies
so much there, one night just awful, another time 8 guys
with a solid understanding of the game.

[Andy B]

The last time I played in the $4/8 game, it was pretty tight. Sometimes it can be very good though, in spite of the hideous rake. For a while there, they had an $8/16 stud/8 game, which, like the $30/60 this past spring, was too good to last. The $3/6 stud is always good, though. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

If anyone else who plays at Canterbury Park owns a copy of Ray's book, I haven't seen any evidence of it.

[Vehn]

Hey I do /forums/images/icons/frown.gif I played the $4/$8 stud/8 a bit today and it was good as usual. Thats uhm all I have to say.

[Andy B]

I'm sure that you own Ray's book. I've never played against you, so I still haven't seen any evidence. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif I also don't know whether any of it has taken. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[Vehn]

I find it disturbingly suspicious that you've never played against me!

[MtSmalls]

How would you change, if at all, with the even stranger structure in the Palms (LV) 2-10 Stud/8 game? Its $1 ante, $2 bring-in, 2-10, 2-20 on the river, Double qualifier (8 or better low, two pair or better high). I played last weekend, and saw several showdowns with no qualifiers either high or low (the pot was chopped among all remaining players). Also, a player scooping a $100 pot or larger is forced to post a $10 blind in the next hand. It was pretty wild action, with one player swinging from -$450 down to a $70 profit, with which he promptly got up.

[Marco Trevix]

Where is Canterbury Park?

Thanks, Marco

[Andy B]

Where indeed? I haven't been able to find the place lately....

It's in Shakopee Minnesota, a southwest suburb of Minneapolis. It's a horse track, but they have a card room with about 32 poker tables. They spread hold'em, stud, stud/8, and Omaha/8, with limits ranging from $2/4 through $30/60, although the stud games tend to be very much on the small side. Nice room. Don't expect any comps. Come by and say, "hi." /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[Cooling Heels]

I wondered how the Palms handled the pot when neither
direction had qualifiers. In our home game we don't
chop the pot but leave the money in the middle then
shuffle up and deal a new round to the players who
called the river bet.

I plan on visiting the Palms on an upcoming vacation
and have been wrestling with the strategy also.
I've played other places where betting doubles on
the river and made lows with a reasonable looking board
can sometimes force the high hands to fold by max betting
with a small pot.

I don't think one would play many high starting hands
with a double qualifier.

[MtSmalls]

I thought the double qualifier made the game pretty interesting and actually seemed to slow the betting down on the early streets. Since almost any hand (other than being rolled up) was a drawing hand, the wired pairs had to slow a little bit until catching that second pair, and the lows of course were drawing, usually to good hands. BUT all in all the action was great. If you like stud/8, its a game you might want to check out while you are there.