Learning limit, Part I (KK hand)

[punter11235]

Hello all,

I am nolimit player (currently at 200NL or 400NL). I decided to start my limit adventure at 2$/4$ level. I will be posting some hand and hope to understand limit better. Ok here's the first one I think I play it a bit weak/tight. Did I left a bigbet not raising river ?
(no reads yet as I just sit down) :

Paradise Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, CO calls, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls, CO calls, Button calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, CO folds, Button folds.

Turn: (5.50 BB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, Hero calls.

River: (9.50 BB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.50 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
UTG has 8s Qs (two pair, queens and tens).
Hero has Kd Kc (two pair, kings and tens).
Outcome: Hero wins 11.50 BB. </font>

Comments ?

[einbert]

I can't decide whether I like three-betting the turn or donkbetting the river, but I am leaning towards three-betting the turn.

[imported_CaseClosed326]

Looks ok to me. I don't usualy throw in another raise anywhere against an unknown. But I can be pretty weak tight as well.

[shant]

3-bet the turn. If he caps, you can go into call-down mode.

[punter11235]

I dont know how often ppl folds toppair here but I am afraid that he can fold this to my 3bet on the turn and only call with better hands.

[shant]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont know how often ppl folds toppair here but I am afraid that he can fold this to my 3bet on the turn and only call with better hands.

[/ QUOTE ]
Trust me, only a small minority of players will play top pair this way AND be able to fold on the turn. If he felt top pair was strong enough to wait for the turn to raise, he is not folding to your 3-bet.

[mosta]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't decide whether I like three-betting the turn or donkbetting the river, but I am leaning towards three-betting the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

ditto, except I lean towards donk-bet, for reasons I mentioned before. I dont' want to be capped and I don't want to fold.

[DeuceKicker]

[ QUOTE ]
Trust me, only a small minority of players will play top pair this way AND be able to fold on the turn. If he felt top pair was strong enough to wait for the turn to raise, he is not folding to your 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

But isn't it also true that only a minority of players at 2/4 will even raise with 'only' top pair against a PFR with an overcard on the flop? This smells too much like two pair or a set to be going crazy with nothing but an overpair.

I want to get to showdown, and if he caps the turn I'd have a tough time justifying staying with my hand. For the same price I can see the showdown and get some notes on his play.

Edit: For those who want to bet out on the river... you still want to do this when it pairs the card he raised on? With no read?

[shant]

[ QUOTE ]
But isn't it also true that only a minority of players at 2/4 will even raise with 'only' top pair against a PFR with an overcard on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't agree with this. In my experience, players on Party have no respect for a PFR, and will play their hands stupidly enough to warrant a 3-bet on this turn.

[DeuceKicker]

I'll admit the number of players who will bet into your PFR--and show (sometimes mindless, sometimes cunning) aggression--has gone up lately, but I still think it's well enough below 50% that I'd need a read along these lines before I make that assumption.

[speirs]

I would 3bet that turn and without a doubt bet that river when Villain doesn't cap the turn.

[sthief09]

maybe 3-bet the turn, definitely check raise the river

[bobdibble]

[ QUOTE ]
maybe 3-bet the turn, definitely check raise the river

[/ QUOTE ]

If you 3-bet the turn and villain calls, most oppenents will check behind on the river with hands you beat since the paired T will make them crap their pants.

If you 3-bet and get called, you must lead the river IMO.

As for CRing the river after smooth calling the turn... well, I dunno. Are you folding to a 3-bet? I don't CR this river very often. Now that I think about it, you are more likely to get 2 bets with a CR while you are ahead since a lot of players are incapable of folding to the CR...whereas if you bet and get raised you will still be putting in 2 bets, but it means you are likely behind. Is this your reasoning for the CR?

(The thought process above is somewhat subtle, and I'm thinking about writing a post on it someday... i.e. you want X bets on a given group of streets, but if they happen because the villain puts them in, you are behind... however, if you take an action, like the river CR v.s. a lead here, where you trick villain to put them in, the villian's hand is less defined but you are more likely to be ahead... It is a variant on the theme of the WA/WB line.. i.e. leaving the situation in an uncertain state can be &gt;EV than causing it to collapse to a specific state. I have a vague feeling that there is a substantial concept here, but it seems to come in and out of focus for me as I try to pin it down.)

[sthief09]

my reasoning for it is simply that he probably has the best hand and his opponent will probably bet again.

[bobdibble]

I think we are saying the same thing actually... we want 2 bets on the river, but if we get them via a donk-bet/raise/call, we are behind.

If you CR and are 3-bet, are you calling it? I am, but I strongly suspect that is a leak against anyone other than a maniac.

[Akimka]

3bet turn is my choice

BTW:
[ QUOTE ]
I am nolimit player (currently at 200NL or 400NL). I decided to start my limit adventure at 2$/4$ level.

[/ QUOTE ]
why do you taking shoots in limit area? I thought NL is more profitable, is it wrong? What do you think easer to beat - Party 200NL or 3/6-5/10 limit?

[sthief09]

I will say no comment because I tend to pay off too much

[punter11235]

[ QUOTE ]

why do you taking shoots in limit area? I thought NL is more profitable, is it wrong? What do you think easer to beat - Party 200NL or 3/6-5/10 limit?


[/ QUOTE ]
I dont know what is easier to beat because :
a)I dont play at Party and I probably never will, software is just too awful
b)Last time I played limit it was 0.25/0.5 microstakes, so I dont even know if can bet 2$/4$

I try playing limit because I like playing poker and taking shoots at diffrent games like limit holdem, plo, plo/8 or even microlimit stud