My check-threebet runs smack into another player's check-cap... [Archive]

chesspain

06-21-2005, 04:10 PM

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

The Button is a known TAG. No reads on the other two players.

Preflop: chesspain is SB with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
3 folds, MP2 raises, CO calls, Button 3-bets, chesspain calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Although I would usually cap here, I only called since I wanted to see the flop and possibly set up for a checkraise.

Flop: (13 SB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
chesspain checks, MP2 checks, CO bets, Button raises, chesspain 3-bets, MP2 caps, CO folds, Button folds, chesspain calls.

Turn: (12 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
chesspain checks, MP2 bets, chesspain calls.

River: (14 BB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
chesspain checks, MP2 bets, chesspain calls.

Final Pot: 16 BB

Too weak on the turn/river?

jay1313

06-21-2005, 04:17 PM

I would be lost here too. I misread the position, I agree with your call down line.

toss

06-21-2005, 04:17 PM

I think MP2's hand capping range from most likely to least likely is: TT, AA, KK, QQ/99, and JJ.

The flop action is extremely weird and also extremely unsettling. I'd also call down.

peterchi

06-21-2005, 04:22 PM

I only recently figured out what this was so correct me if I'm wrong, but is this a wa/wb? And if so, then that means this is in fact the right way to play the turn/river, right?

Because I'm putting MP2 on AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT. Dang, sucky board.

And I will throw up on my feet if you tell me he had JTs.

mosta

06-21-2005, 04:26 PM

I think you played it okay. he should cap pf with AA or KK. I think I lead the river. he's not expecting AA or KK b/c no one capped. he could have a set, and we're not thrilled about the J on the river, but what probably happened on the flop is he had a PP and confirmed that 3-bettor missed. then again, he does have ot give your 3-bet credit. still, he can't put you on AA or KK. I think it's close to lead the river or check-call it. JJ, TT, 77, 88 are probably more likely than QQ. so, okay, check call the river.

mosta

06-21-2005, 04:29 PM

side-point: you've already got three players in the pot pf when the action gets to you. cap it up. the time to withhold the cap is with 1 or maybe 2 other players. multi-way I don't think you make up for it.

S_Perry

06-21-2005, 04:29 PM

I don't like preflop. Given preflop and the flop, I like calling the flop to try to bet/3-bet the turn.

Aces McGee

06-21-2005, 04:30 PM

My original thought was that because you've underrepresented your hand by not capping preflop, you need to be more aggressive later, and should therefore bet the turn. If raised, call down from there. Don't checkraise, because I don't think you want to be three-bet -- you'll still have to call down.

However, MP2 is willing to cap the flop after:

1) the CO bets into the pre-flop 3-bettor
2) the pre-flop 3-bettor raises
3) you check 3-bet

I'm beginning to give him credit for AA at minimum, with TT seeming more reasonable since he didn't cap preflop.

I hate decisions like this. If he has QQ, you scold yourself for being a wimp; if he has AA or TT, you scold yourself for spewing.

Bottom line, I think you played it fine [EDIT: postflop. I'm not thrilled about not capping preflop]. However, if you had posted it where you bet the turn, were raised, and called down from there, I probably would've said you played it fine. Conclusion: either I'm too wishy-washy, or it doesn't make a huge difference either way.

-McGee

crunchy1

06-21-2005, 04:31 PM

I think that not capping this hand PF hurt you after the flop.

krimson

06-21-2005, 04:40 PM

Weird situation. Given the way MP2 plays the hand I would put him on 88-QQ. This might be a bit specific of a read but I can't think of a raising hand that would be so excited about the flop. Loose J9 steal seems a bit odd?

If he does have 88-QQ then these are all likely hands to cap the flop. Two overpair, two sets, and one second pair with straight draw.

Give then fairly equal probability of being ahead or behind I don't think calling down to the river is out of the question.

Is my read on MP2 too specific or does this seem reasonable to others?

ihardlyknowher

06-21-2005, 04:45 PM

IMO -
[ QUOTE ]
I only called since I wanted to see the flop

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a bad reason. You have a HUGE equity edge against 3 other players.
[ QUOTE ]
possibly set up for a checkraise.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a good reason. In a multiway pot, you will want to protect your likely overpair and a c/r (assuming the Button bets) will do just that.

I would have probably thrown in one more raise on the turn. Spewing?

Aces McGee

06-21-2005, 04:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would have probably thrown in one more raise on the turn. Spewing?

[/ QUOTE ]

As I said in my response to chesspain, I think it far better to bet the turn than check-raise it.

-McGee

ihardlyknowher

06-21-2005, 04:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would have probably thrown in one more raise on the turn. Spewing?

[/ QUOTE ]

As I said in my response to chesspain, I think it far better to bet the turn than check-raise it.

-McGee

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. Given the river card, check/call is the only way to play the river, right?

QTip

06-21-2005, 04:57 PM

This really looks like TT to me.

DeuceKicker

06-21-2005, 04:58 PM

Hmmm, I think at the flop I'd be leaning toward TT (obviously a disaster) or 99 (still not all that great for you). I think in this case I'd want to be sure a bet went in on the turn, and I'd be pretty sure he was going to be putting that bet in, so I'd check/call. River card sucks.

Edit: I'm not crazy about not capping PF, but it may not be that big a deal. If the known TAG knows you as a TAG, a cold-call then check-raise later should set off alarms. The other unkown's opinion of you might make the difference. (Would a cap be seen as gambooling by him, or as a tight player with AA/KK?)

jba

06-21-2005, 05:01 PM

I'm thinking I like the idea of c/c the turn, bet this river? The J may actually give us a little cover on the river as it puts 4 to a straight, and villain may have a hard time raising here.

ehhh, not too sure I like it. I'd like to limit the betting to 2bbs on the turn and river.

DeuceKicker

06-21-2005, 05:10 PM

Another point: What about leading out on the flop? Maybe it's seeing monsters, but the pot is big enough now that I'd be trying to take it down, and there are straight possibilities out there. Given that, what about leading and letting MP2 raise to isolate you? Maybe I'm being results-oriented since I know the 4-straight hit.

VoraciousReader

06-21-2005, 05:18 PM

Wow, this one is...wow.

Preflop, MP2 raises, Button 3-bets (...by the way, I don't much care for the call: if Button is a TAG and has a decent read on you, he already knows you're not calling 2.5 bets with anything less than a premium hand, so you're not deceiving him...I'd go ahead and cap it and get the guaranteed $ now...), MP2 does not cap. So I'm not putting him on AA or KK. QQ, JJ, TT, maybe AK, AQ, AJ or as low as AT or 99/88/77. Who likes the flop: QQ, JJ, AT, TT (!), 88, 77. I don't see 99, AT check/capping. JJ has overcard pair plus a GSSD. If he's a sneaky player, I'm putting him on JJ or QQ...with this much action, I'd hold off until the BBs on the turn to raise if I had the trips.

But since we don't KNOW if he's a sneaky player, he could very well have TT, 88, 77. I think your strategy is reasonable. I probably don't risk a turn bet. I don't want to be reraised out of this pot.

/images/graemlins/confused.gif

chesspain

06-21-2005, 05:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
IMO -
[ QUOTE ]
I only called since I wanted to see the flop

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a bad reason. You have a HUGE equity edge against 3 other players.
[ QUOTE ]
possibly set up for a checkraise.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a good reason. In a multiway pot, you will want to protect your likely overpair and a c/r (assuming the Button bets) will do just that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Splitting up what was originally a single sentence into two sentences is just silly and misleading. The reason I only called is that if I want to go for flop checkraise, capping and then checking the flop would greatly increase the risks of the flop getting checked through, especially if MP2 has a smallish premium pair and the Button has whiffed overcards.

ihardlyknowher

06-21-2005, 06:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
IMO -
[ QUOTE ]
I only called since I wanted to see the flop

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a bad reason. You have a HUGE equity edge against 3 other players.
[ QUOTE ]
possibly set up for a checkraise.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a good reason. In a multiway pot, you will want to protect your likely overpair and a c/r (assuming the Button bets) will do just that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Splitting up what was originally a single sentence into two sentences is just silly and misleading. The reason I only called is that if I want to go for flop checkraise, capping and then checking the flop would greatly increase the risks of the flop getting checked through, especially if MP2 has a smallish premium pair and the Button has whiffed overcards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Didn't mean to be misleading. I thought you intended them as 2 different reasons. The first being the typical weak-tight "want to make sure no Ace flops" reason. You did use the word "and" between the two thoughts. If this wasn't your thought, then disregard my comment. My apologies.

Nick C

06-21-2005, 08:19 PM

I think there's some chance that MP2 planned to checkraise the Button with something like QQ and then went ahead and followed through despite encountering a lot more action than he expected. I think it's more likely that he has a set or AA. There are a lot of other hands we can't completely rule out, and by the river it is unfortunate that 99 and JJ are among them.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure I would have called down after the flop check/cap, expecting to lose but hoping to see QQ or something worse (such as AT/AJ).

QTip

06-21-2005, 08:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think there's some chance that MP2 planned to checkraise the Button with something like QQ and then went ahead and followed through despite encountering a lot more action than he expected. I think it's more likely that he has a set or AA. There are a lot of other hands we can't completely rule out, and by the river it is unfortunate that 99 and JJ are among them.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure I would have called down after the flop check/cap, expecting to lose but hoping to see QQ or something worse (such as AT/AJ).

[/ QUOTE ]

With this board after hero 3 bets (I'm assuming villain knows hero is a TAG), do you think he would value bet AA? I'm not sure I would after that river card...maybe that's weak, but I would really wonder what he was pumping there after his PF call.

Nick C

06-21-2005, 08:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]

With this board after hero 3 bets (I'm assuming villain knows hero is a TAG), do you think he would value bet AA? I'm not sure I would after that river card...maybe that's weak, but I would really wonder what he was pumping there after his PF call.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I were MP2 and had AA, Chesspain's check/3-bet would have scared me quite a bit. I'm not sure how I would have responded to it, but I probably would have capped in an effort to protect my hand (the pot is still 4-way at that point), which, given the board and the pot size, I would also worry would be futile (and I'd be even more worried that I was already behind).

Anyway, though, I also would have capped my AA preflop, and Chesspain doesn't have a read on MP2, so I think there's a good chance MP2 doesn't have much of a read on Chesspain either.

Nick C

06-21-2005, 09:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

With this board after hero 3 bets (I'm assuming villain knows hero is a TAG), do you think he would value bet AA? I'm not sure I would after that river card...maybe that's weak, but I would really wonder what he was pumping there after his PF call.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I were MP2 and had AA, Chesspain's check/3-bet would have scared me quite a bit. I'm not sure how I would have responded to it, but I probably would have capped in an effort to protect my hand (the pot is still 4-way at that point), which, given the board and the pot size, I would also worry would be futile (and I'd be even more worried that I was already behind).

Anyway, though, I also would have capped my AA preflop, and Chesspain doesn't have a read on MP2, so I think there's a good chance MP2 doesn't have much of a read on Chesspain either.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's too late to edit, but I just realized you were probably talking about the river more than the flop.

Anyway, yes, I would have trouble finding a bet on the river with AA, on that board, after the previous action.

chief444

06-21-2005, 10:09 PM

Chesspain,

I can't really argue with posflop since that check/cap is pretty scary. Not too many opponents do that with a hand you beat even with something like 9T, IMO.

As far as preflop, I just wanted to point out that if Button is paying attention he's going to be very concerned with you semi-cold calling 3 preflop. There aren't many hands you'll do that with really. I guess what I'm getting at is it seems like he'll be checking a flop like this through more often that usual with you in. I would be anyway. No way I'm betting AK or AQ on a 78T flop knowing there's a VERY good chance you'll be raising. Just a thought.

Chief