Had a very strong draw...how was my flop play...river call?

[outofstep]

MP1 was loose so I decided to make a crying call on the river? Against an unkown, would I have to fold?


Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Hero posts a blind of $0.5.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero (poster) calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (11 SB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, SB folds, UTG folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls.

Turn: (9 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (11 BB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 13 BB

[istewart]

Yes, I would fold against most opponents on the river.

[Rosencrantz1]

You'd be getting 12:1 pot odds on the river....I don't think you can fold.

Edit: And I think the flop/turn plays are fine.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
MP1 was loose so I decided to make a crying call on the river? Against an unkown, would I have to fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're looking at the wrong information. The question is how aggressive he is. He raised preflop, rasied and called the flop, then bet into the flop 3-bettor. I think this is a standard river fold against most players.

[restless]

i really can't see what hand you're beating here. Can you tell me what hand you're hoping that MP1 raised preflop &amp; raised the flop with? Just how loose was he?

What range of hands does he have to raise in order for you to be ahead 1 time of 12? Would he play a hand worse than yours this strongly?

questions, questions ... fill me in please.

[Fantam]

I think that I would have just called on the flop.

You needed to improve your hand to have a good chance of winning the pot. So I would have preferred to try not to eliminate other players, who could help to pad the pot incase I made a big hand.

I would not usually fold the river in a big pot for 1 bet. However there are very few hands that I could imagine a PF raiser, who has shown agression throughout the hand, could have that I would beat with this board. So I would feel inclined to fold on the river, in this instance.

[imported_The Vibesman]

In order for you to win on the river, you need to know if MP1 would raise in that spot with absolutely nothing but a draw, because if he caught any piece of that flop at all, then the best you could possibly hope for is a split pot, and that is only if he has a J. The ten on the river was a terrible card for so many reasons, it completes a flush draw, trips, and counterfeits your kicker, so he could have J-2 and still chop. A ten or an ace beats you. Definite fold against an unknown, and many knowns, as well.

I'm interested in the thought process behind the flop play. My first instinct is actually to go for overcalls. I don't think the raise folds anyone with A-Q, so if you hit the Q for two pair, you will probably win or lose regardless of if you raise here. You're also not going to get a K-high flush draw to fold. If someone had the guts (or silliness) to call a pre-flop raise w/ A-rag, they are probably not going anywhere with top pair. You could possible get opponents to fold K-J and A-rag. I don't know, I think between the original bettor and raiser (not to mention MP1, besides raising the flop, also raised pre-flop, it is hard for me to believe he doesn't have an ace, no matter how loose he may be-aside from maybe 99, I can't put him on a hand that we beat right now) that you are quite possibly beat on the flop, but drawing to a strong hand that will likely be best if you make it, so I would go for overcalls, hoping to increase my odds on the flush and gutshot draw.

I'm interested to hear anyone else's thoughts on that issue...

[Rosencrantz1]

Very true; point taken.

[jrz1972]

I agree with the people who are folding this river. I would need a read on villain as really aggressive to call.

[SocialWelfareIV]

By the time the action gets to the Hero on the flop, the pot is 14 SB. Two players have checked and there is the initial bettor and raiser. If Hero raises, he wil offer the two initial checkers either 17:3 or 20:3 depending on if the first calls.

Hero can probably assume 9 full outs for the flush. What about the two pair, trips, and straight outs? The problem with a Q (3) is that it puts 4 to the straight on board. Another J (2) would likely give Hero the best bad. A K (4)will give the Hero the nuts but a split pot is definetely possible.

Initially looking at the hand, I liked going for overcallers as well, but looking at it some more I think I like the 3-bet. I think the 3-bet really discourages chasing and buys outs a lot of the time here. I don't want SB or UTG chasing with just a Q or K, putting Hero in situations where he improves but someone else hits a better hand or the pot is split. I think that there also might be an equity edge here if the hand is played 3 ways anyway.

[PuckNPoker]

I think going for overcalls on the flop is the way to go, you'd be trying to clean up a Queen out to keep from splitting the pot if a King fell. MP1 could easily have AQ as AK (or worse, KQ) so you really want that dead money in there for when you hit your hand and it increases the chance that SB or UTG might come along.

The river is a fold.