Gene Kelly vs. Fred Astaire

[Shaman]

Who was better?

How close did Michael Jackson get to these two song and dance men, prime for prime?

[jakethebake]

Gayest thread ever?

[swede123]

Gene Kelly would be my pick, simply because of Singin' In the Rain. It's a very good movie, and I'm really not that knowledgable of Fred Astaire's work. Michael Jackson was a great singer/performer but a horrible actor, so I wouldn't compare him with the two greats of old.

Swede

[Blarg]

I don't think Jackson got very close.

Kelly was a hoofer. He loved the ground and stuck close to it. He made dancing look extremely physical, even macho. Watching him, you had no doubt this guy was strong and an athlete

To Astaire, the ground seemed incidental. His balance was high, and his legs glided under it. Dancing didn't seem so athletic with him, but kind of like a subtle miracle. He often looked like he was so relaxed he could not only complete his movements, but had extra time left over and grace to spare; everything fell so precisely and easily into place.

They both evoked a different kind of "wow."

Kelly was a stronger, more vigorous athlete and could out-do Astaire on that level. I can't picture Astaire doing a back flip. But in terms of making grace look casual and easy, Astaire seemed better. Kelly could make grace look miraculous, but hard won. You'd always say "wow" when Kelly danced, but maybe sometimes forget when Astaire did, because he was so good at what he did you could forget how hard it was to make it look effortless.

I'd say Kelly for overall athlete, but I wouldn't put his grace over Astaire's.

[Jersey Nick]

Kelly. Left bruises on women after dancing with them.

That's hot.

Astaire was a great dancer, but nowhere near as cool as Kelly.

mj is a sideshow freak, not a dancer.

[M2d]

Matter of taste. Gene Kelly was more along the vaudville style solo dancing while Fred Astaire was better known for his ballroom dancing. Gene Kelly was also known for very inventive uses of props and scenery in his dances. imo, Astaire was more versatile, but Gene Kelly was more fun to watch.
Check out Gene Kelly's roller skate scene in "It's Always Fair Weather" for some mind blowing tapping.
other scenes of note (not the famous ones like the dancing with shadows one):
Fred: Astaire/Rodgers dance scene in the dance class studio in "Swing Time"
Astaire solo dance scene on the driving range

Gene: the aforementioned roller skate scene in "It's always Fair Weather"
Kelly, Kidd and Dailey's synchornized softshoe to The Time for Parting in Fair Weather
with Judy Garland in "For Me and My Gal" (movie and song of the same name)
almost all of "An American in Paris"

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v638/pwarcham/OOTtub.jpg

[Shaman]

I pretty much agree with your analysis. If Kelly were in his prime today, no break dancer would be able to touch him at break dancing. And he would be world-class in any form of dancing from hip hop to ballroom, etc.

[Blarg]

Yeah, he seemed pretty determined and fearless. Very strong ego, too. I don't think he'd stand for taking a backseat to anyone. His competitiveness would make him learn anything and master it. He definitely had the athletic gifts to not shrink away from new challenges.

[youtalkfunny]

Kelly was the only male dancer I could watch. Nothing sissy about the guy. Also a very fine actor, could do drama and comedy if he never danced a step.

[Macdaddy Warsaw]

I'm only familiar with Singin' in the Rain (by familiar I mean own it and have written papers on it) but I developed a serious man-crush for Kelly after watching it. That man can move.

[tek]

Donald O'C Donald O'Connor (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0640307/) onner

was a good dancer too.

[Blarg]

Donald O'Connor was great. He could steal scenes from Gene Kelly, which is saying something. Super talented and he had personality to burn. One of the things that really made Singin' In The Rain stand out so much.

[Phat Mack]

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Kelly was a stronger, more vigorous athlete and could out-do Astaire on that level.

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One thing to keep in mind is that Astaire didn't start appearing in films until he was in his 30's, and he was pushing 40 when he made the flicks for which he is now known. People who saw him dance in the earl 20's reported that he was much stonger athletically, but there's no visual record of it. I've always thought Astaire the better dancer because of his greater range, but that's a purely subjective opinion.

As a side note, a guy from that era whom I've always gotten a kick out of watching is Jimmy Cagney.

As another side note, I would put Prince ahead of Michael Jackson.

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

Seriously? This thread is still going on?

[Shaman]

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As a side note, a guy from that era whom I've always gotten a kick out of watching is Jimmy Cagney.

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Cagney was a great song and dance man. I agree. So was the kid Mickey Rooney.

[ QUOTE ]
As another side note, I would put Prince ahead of Michael Jackson.

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This is a ridiculous statement. Jackson in his prime may not have been in the same league as Kelly and Astaire but he was at least in the same league as O'Connor, Bolger (who played the Scarecrow in the Wizard of Oz), and yes, Cagney.

[Blarg]

I dunno. I've frankly never seen him do sustained bits of dancing anywhere near the level of O'Connor. When I've seen Jackson it has been in rapidly cut videos full of short takes. The level of skill needed to look good in a quick cut isn't high at all. The level of skill needed to do full-coverage head to toe shots for extended sequences without cutting takes an entirely different level of athlete.

I'm not saying there's plenty about his dancing skills I may not know, but just saying that I think a lot of the credit for Michael's dancing belongs first with his choreographers, and also very much with the director and editors of his videos. A good team can make almost anyone look like a good dancer or fighter, much less someone with a modicum of talent.

[Phat Mack]

[ QUOTE ]
The level of skill needed to look good in a quick cut isn't high at all. The level of skill needed to do full-coverage head to toe shots for extended sequences without cutting takes an entirely different level of athlete.


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I don't know how much of their stuff is available on DVD, but for pure athleticism in extended, seemingly uncut, sequences, the Nicholas Brothers have to be a level above anybody yet mentioned.

[Blarg]

I've seen them on the occasional PBS show. Definite real wow factor there.

[tek]

[ QUOTE ]
As another side note, I would put Prince ahead of Michael Jackson.

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As a side note, I would put both of them out the back door and watch MC Hammer anytime. Word. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Blarg]

Yeah, he almost instantly vanished from the stage, but he had talent while he was there.

[RacersEdge]

[ QUOTE ]
the Nicholas Brothers have to be a level above anybody yet mentioned.


[/ QUOTE ]

Are they current or from the past?

[andyfox]

For me, Astaire. So many classic movie scenes, Puttin' On The Ritz and the one where he danced on the walls and ceiling (they used a rotating room). I used to see him at a local restaurant in his later years; even in those days, he didn't walk like you and me. He glided. Unbelievably graceful.

A friend of mine wrote the screenplay for Xanadu (with Olivia-Newton John) in which Kelly appeared. He told me Kelly was wonderful, extraordinarily helpful, friendly, and professional. I saw Kelly on the street one day in Beverly Hills when his Christmas tree caught fire and did a lot of damage to his house.

I think I remember Michael Jackson saying he got a call from Fred Astaire when he moonwalked/danced on TV and how thrilling it was for him. Kelly was great, but Astaire was special.

[M2d]

they're from the 30's and they were badass

nicholas brothers (http://www.nicholasbrothers.com/)

[andyfox]

The movie where Astaire dances on the ceiling is Royal Wedding. He also dances with a hatrack in that one.

[M2d]

I think the dancing with shadows scened from swing time should be shoulder to shoulder with those two more noted scenes. Also (my favorite Astaire/Rogers number) dance studio number from that same movie is amazing.

[Phat Mack]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the Nicholas Brothers have to be a level above anybody yet mentioned.


[/ QUOTE ]

Are they current or from the past?

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I think they were in their prime in the 40's. I've only seen them once, when they did a walk-on routine during the requisite dance band scene in some old movie. I wish I knew more about them and had seen more of their work.

[Phat Mack]

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The movie where Astaire dances on the ceiling is Royal Wedding. He also dances with a hatrack in that one.

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What gets me is that he was in his 50's when he danced both of these, as well as when he danced the "Girl Killer" scene in Showboat. When I hit 50, it took me an hour to get out of bed and hobble over to the coffee maker.

[ QUOTE ]
even in those days, he didn't walk like you and me. He glided. Unbelievably graceful.

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An oldtimer pool play in NYC (I think it was Ned Polsky) once told me that Astaire was the best celebrity to ever play the game. I've always thought there was a connection between this "grace" and his proficiency at pool.

[Phat Mack]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As another side note, I would put Prince ahead of Michael Jackson.

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As a side note, I would put both of them out the back door and watch MC Hammer anytime. Word. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

As we were discussing this thread at the poker table last night, somebody told me that Usher was better than both of them, but I've never seen him. True?

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
What gets me is that he was in his 50's when he danced both of these, as well as when he danced the "Girl Killer" scene in Showboat. When I hit 50, it took me an hour to get out of bed and hobble over to the coffee maker.


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And you LIKED it!

[Blarg]

People commonly say that whatever celebrity is the getting pimped around the media the most at any current time is always the best of all time.

Combine that tendency with most people's knowledge of any time period outside their own being minimal and you get: lots of silly claims.