stuck in the middle with JTs [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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jb9

06-21-2005, 01:30 PM

UTG+2 was very loose aggressive preflop (VPIP 60, PFR 14 through 45 hands) but fairly passive postflop.

UTG+1 just lost a big pot with KK (that he played aggressively) to a passively played AA and only has 6.5 big bets left in front of him.

The table was generally playing loose passive.

I talked myself into the preflop cold call by thinking "who knows what this guy decided to raise with -- I'll just call and hopefully a few others will cold call too...". How bad is this?

I was pretty much lost from that point on.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 raises, 2 folds, Hero calls, 3 folds, BB calls, UTG+1 3-bets, UTG+2 caps, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (14.50 SB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 bets, Hero calls, UTG+1 raises, UTG+2 3-bets, Hero calls, UTG+1 caps, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls.

Would you fold the flush draw here? I was thinking UTG+2 had a 7 or a big pair and that UTG+1 could have a big pair or could be on tilt from the last hand or both.

Turn: (13.25 BB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
UTG+1 bets, UTG+2 raises, Hero 3-bets...

I 3 bet not because I picked up the gutshot but because I was pretty sure that UTG+1 (who only had $6 left at this point) was going to raise if I didn't and I wanted to discourage UTG+2 from capping.

Then I started praying for an 8 or a /images/graemlins/club.gif.

imported_leader

06-21-2005, 01:38 PM

CC pre-flop is no good. Turn 3-bet is way way too much. You have outs but your J and T outs are no good here. 13 outs isn't enough to be jamming the pot on the turn with 3 players.

crunchy1

06-21-2005, 01:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I talked myself into the preflop cold call by thinking "who knows what this guy decided to raise with -- I'll just call and hopefully a few others will cold call too...". How bad is this?

[/ QUOTE ]
Pretty bad - you need to have a cold-caller(s) in front of you to make this call or be more certain than "hopefully" that they'll come in behind you.

Easy fold PF.

jba

06-21-2005, 01:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
UTG+2 was very loose aggressive preflop (VPIP 60, PFR 14 through 45 hands) but fairly passive postflop.

UTG+1 just lost a big pot with KK (that he played aggressively) to a passively played AA and only has 6.5 big bets left in front of him.

The table was generally playing loose passive.

I talked myself into the preflop cold call by thinking "who knows what this guy decided to raise with -- I'll just call and hopefully a few others will cold call too...". How bad is this?

I was pretty much lost from that point on.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 raises, 2 folds, Hero calls, 3 folds, BB calls, UTG+1 3-bets, UTG+2 caps, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (14.50 SB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 bets, Hero calls, UTG+1 raises, UTG+2 3-bets, Hero calls, UTG+1 caps, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls.

Would you fold the flush draw here? I was thinking UTG+2 had a 7 or a big pair and that UTG+1 could have a big pair or could be on tilt from the last hand or both.

Turn: (13.25 BB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
UTG+1 bets, UTG+2 raises, Hero 3-bets...

I 3 bet not because I picked up the gutshot but because I was pretty sure that UTG+1 (who only had $6 left at this point) was going to raise if I didn't and I wanted to discourage UTG+2 from capping.

Then I started praying for an 8 or a /images/graemlins/club.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you can fold that preflop. I'm sure you'll hear that a lot.

I think you're kind of stuck the rest of the way. And no I'm not dropping the flush draw on the flop, no way.

I don't think I raise the turn there though I get what you're saying. However you are risking 1BB to hopefully save .5bb, not sure it's worth it.

I think you have a little less than 11 outs on the turn here, I think I'm trying to see the river as cheaply as humanly possible here.

crunchy1

06-21-2005, 01:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think I raise the turn there though I get what you're saying. However you are risking 1BB to hopefully save .5bb, not sure it's worth it.

[/ QUOTE ]
If UTG+2 is going to cap he's going to cap. Hero's 3-bet is not discouraging this action - the 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif is not a scare card. So I believe that saying Hero is saving himeself 1/2BB is incorrect.

Actually, Hero potentially cost himself 1/2BB here (assuming he's behind). If UTG+1 makes the 3-bet he does it with only 1.5BBs (all-in) and then UTG+2 can only cap to 7.5BBs instead of 8BB (...I think). But when Hero 3-bets UTG+1 calls all-in with his 1.5BBs and then UTG+2 can cap to 8BBs.

I think this is the way it works (regardless it's pretty trivial).

jba

06-21-2005, 01:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
13 outs isn't enough to be jamming the pot on the turn with 3 players.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you double counted the 8/images/graemlins/club.gif. I also think it's pretty safe to assume that the A/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, or Q/images/graemlins/club.gif is either in UTG+2's hand, or will give him a boat. I think we can pretty much fully discount 1 out here.

We also have to consider UTG+1 holding something like 87, in which case the 8/images/graemlins/club.gif fills him up. He might just be crazy so I'm not sure a full discount is necessary.

imported_leader

06-21-2005, 02:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
13 outs isn't enough to be jamming the pot on the turn with 3 players.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you double counted the 8/images/graemlins/club.gif. I also think it's pretty safe to assume that the A/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, or Q/images/graemlins/club.gif is either in UTG+2's hand, or will give him a boat. I think we can pretty much fully discount 1 out here.

We also have to consider UTG+1 holding something like 87, in which case the 8/images/graemlins/club.gif fills him up. He might just be crazy so I'm not sure a full discount is necessary.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right. I wasn't thinking about it very hard.

Moneyline

06-21-2005, 03:15 PM

Preflop: IMO, the preflop call is fine if you expect a few cold callers. From your description, the table seems loose enough to expect that a few will tag along; however, I'd probably fold if a good number of pots were getting 3bet preflop.

Flop: Looks fine, I might even raise here. It's 2:1 that your flush will come in, so all those raises break-even for you. Folding is out of the question.

Turn: I would just call. It think it's safe to assume that you're behind, but you have so many outs that you're almost break-even to win the pot. You have just about no chance of getting UTG+1 to fold a better hand with so few chips, so just call.

crunchy1

06-21-2005, 03:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: Looks fine, I might even raise here. It's 2:1 that your flush will come in, so all those raises break-even for you. Folding is out of the question.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think it's closer to 3-to-1 than 2-to-1. Hero's holding the 4th nut flush draw and there's a pair on board. Folding is definitely NOT out of the question.