PlayerView/GameTime+ Alternative Technical Discussion

[PokerAce]

I started this post so that some of the technical details of the application can be discussed. We can also discuss other things regarding the application.

First, I want to ask everyone what they think of the name "PT Hud" for the application. It stands for "PokerTracker Heads Up Display." It's short, simple and rolls off the tongue.

The version of the application that everyone is using right now was pretty much a rushed effort to get a working application out there before the free PlayerView releases stopped working. It's a simple application that has one big loop. It checks for new HHF files, gets the player information from the database, then displays the stats on the windows until the next time it loops around. It works, but it's limited in what it can do and has problems. Someone mentioned in the previous thread that the stats sometimes don't draw properly. This is due to the program not being in the drawing portion of the loop. It also makes it difficult to do such things as showing the mucked cards and so forth.

To solve these problems, I need to use threads. In the new version that I'm working on, I have one thread that constantly searches for and reads from all the HHF files. It can send out a notification when anything happens at a table: a player sits down, a player leaves, someone raises, someone shows down (or mucks at river) their hand, etc.

I plan on making it so that you never really need to "refresh." The application will know exactly when a player leaves, so their stats will disappear as soon as they do. The application will also know when someone sits down and will immediately fetch their stats from the database. To cut down some on the database access the number of refreshes per player will be limited based on how many hands you have with that player. For example, a player you have 50 hands with will have their stats refreshed every 5-10 hands. However, someone you have 2000 hands on will only be refreshed every 50 hands or so. There will be ranges for this and it will be configurable.

Another thing I really want to do is have the mucked hands at showdown shown. Since the HHF reading code can send a notification immediately at showdown, I want to be able to use the PartyPoker card images to show what was mucked. Basically, you won't be able to tell the difference if someone showed their hand or mucked. Is this a good idea or would it be better to just show the text for the cards? Also, all stats will disappear at showdown so that they do not cover anyone's cards.

Another thought I had was to remove stats for those players that are no longer in the hand. For instance, when a hand begins, it will display everyone's stats. If someone folds, their stats will disappear as you don't need to worry about them. I'm not really sure if this is a great idea or not. It would take a good deal of work, but if it's a feature everyone wants, I may make the effort.

If anyone has any more suggestions, please let me know. I am having fun developing this application and want to make it as good, if not better, than the alternatives. Help me do that.

[tallstack]

Thanks for keeping up with this, PokerAce. I would love to see new versions of your program with some of the features you are proposing. One of the things that I really like about the program now is the stability, so I hope that this can be achieved when adding these features. Stability is a big feature to me, so I would trade most any feature for keeping it stable. I am not a programmer and I don't appreciate what affects stability, but at least you have one opinion of the importance of it.

That said, I like most all of the features you proposed, especially your idea for showing the mucked cards. If they can be shown while the final board is still showing it would be pretty sweet. Definitely a huge time saver for a multi-tabler.

Removing the stats for players who have folded is not that important to me, but I play 6-max and the screen has lots of space for the stats. Maybe for full ring games it would add to the clarity, but I would much rather see the other features first. I do think that if you add this feature then you should also consider adding in the suggested feature of showing the previous actions for the players in the hand. Maybe one line for each street or all on one line seperated by "/" for each street.

For example;
limp and call a raise pre flop, check and call a bet on the flop, check and raise on the turn and bet the river could be - lc/cc/cr/b
If check and call need to be differentiated then check could be p - for pass, or something like that.

The only other thing that I could add would be to eventually have the ability to see additional stats when you hover over a player's stats. It would be good to have a longer list of stats for use in close decisions.

Thanks again for the work you are putting into this. I plan on being one of the first to make a donation when you get it setup.

Dave S

[PokerAce]

Stability is very important to me too. I 6-table for 5-6 hours a day and I don't want to deal with an application that's constantly locking up or crashing.

With the mucked cards, I can display them just as soon as they're written in the HHF file, which is at showdown. Therefore, when the winner is showing their cards, I'll be showing the mucked cards at the same time. I'll also be making the stats disappear during showdown.

I've thought about adding the previous actions for each player. Though typically if I happen to forget, I usually just scroll through the chat box to see what happened. If there's enough demand for the feature, I'll probably add it. So those of you who want this feature, let me know.

I'm certainly going to add "hover-box" type functionality. I'm not sure exactly how I want to do it yet, but it will get in there.

Thanks for your feedback.

[krimson]

[ QUOTE ]
Another thought I had was to remove stats for those players that are no longer in the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a bad idea. I would rather the stats stay on at all times.

Although stats are most important while in a hand with someone, I am constantly looking at people's stats when not in a hand so that I have that information available to make a quick decision when that time comes.

Even something as simple as glancing at the color of people's vpip tags in the 2-3 seats to my left and right is extremely important information. I don't want these labels to be disappearing and reappearing as the game goes. Especially considering the fact that someone could be a super rock and be folding almost every hand, their stats will then rarely be on the table.

Also, the more often you remove / add stats the more chance their is of bugs causing theirs stats to not come up when they should be there.

If you do add this feature please make it optional.

[gambool]

Just a thought from reading another thread:

PokerNow is detecting PV/PT or possibly PokerStove (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2687029&Main=2686971)

Says that PP skins can take a look at what programs you are running. Their T+Cs prohibit the use 'opponent-profiling' software.

I dont if its something worth worrying about. If it is, and they can see what programs you've got running on your PC, would there be anyway to have a 'dynamic' or user defined task name. (I'm guessing that their method would be to check what tasks you've got running).

[MiguelSanchez]

[ QUOTE ]
Another thing I really want to do is have the mucked hands at showdown shown. Since the HHF reading code can send a notification immediately at showdown, I want to be able to use the PartyPoker card images to show what was mucked. Basically, you won't be able to tell the difference if someone showed their hand or mucked. Is this a good idea or would it be better to just show the text for the cards? Also, all stats will disappear at showdown so that they do not cover anyone's cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

These are great ideas. If the information is immediate, and you can show the mucked cards while they are being mucked, that would be amazing. I would still like to see mucked cards displayed as text from the last hand (at least as an option) since maybe if I'm 4- or 6- tabling I miss what was shown but want to see what the guy folded last time.

[ QUOTE ]
Another thought I had was to remove stats for those players that are no longer in the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

In my opinion this isn't really worth it. The stats probably aren't covering anything up, and it's quite clear who has cards and who doesn't. Unless you plan on expanding the stats shown as the hand is played, e.g. "Folded to river bet after betting out on turn" or "folded to bet with 3-flush".

[Jarekb]

I'll add my vote for showing player actions through out the flop/turn/river. I used to use Poker Office and its live tracker displayed player actions. When I 4 tabled this becomes immensely helpful to know what someone did when you were looking at another table. So it would be great if you can add this, just make it something small underneath their name.

[fooz]

Not as much a technical desire as UI/presentation:

I would REALLY like to be able to adjust position of stats, labels, color ranges and fonts. I prefer a very tight, minimal display as I have to stare at this stuff all day and don't want any more red "paint" on my screen that is necessary. Your current bold font + labels and the grouping is a little intense compared to my PV setup:

http://www.pjpro.com/screenshot.gif

If this request was met, I would be IN HEAVEN. Your app is SOOOO much lighter and more stable than PV, it's ridiculous.

[krimson]

[ QUOTE ]
Your app is SOOOO much lighter and more stable than PV, it's ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

My thoughts too. I have been using this even in it's infant form over gametime and playerview lately.

I will point out that there are a LOT of configureable options for label placement and whatnot in the INI file. It's just a pain in the ass to try and decipher what everything means.

[PokerAce]

You can change the font colors to whatever you want. I'll be adding in options for different fonts in the next version.

Let me know if you need help changing the colors

I also plan on working on a layout manager as soon as I get the next version released.

[Nomad84]

I run WinME and I am loving this app. Nice to have something compatible with such an old OS. I was also impressed that it is an efficient enough program to run along with PT and 4 tables on my old computer. I'm curious to see how it holds up over a long session, but everything is looking great so far. I also love how everything is configureable via the ini file. Been a while since I've used an ini to change settings /images/graemlins/smile.gif Thanks again!

[fooz]

ah...beautiful

[Nomad84]

Still enjoying this app. My only complaint so far is that for certain players, I can't see their cards at showdown because the stats partially cover their cards. This isn't anything major since I was only playing 2 tables at the time and was able to check the HH, but it is annoying nonetheless. Possible fixes would be showing their hole cards at showdown as part of the on screen stats or turning off stats at showdown for players still in the hand. Both of these are variations on other suggestions, I think. I doubt that the first would be possible in real time. Not sure about the second. Regardless, this app is awesome.

[Jarekb]

Do you have anyplans to support other sites besides party skins? How much work would be involved if so?

[PokerAce]

The next version will have the stats disappear during showdown as well as showing the mucked cards.

[PokerAce]

I do want to support other poker sites. As soon as it's fully working for the Party skins, I'll begin working on other sites.

As for how much work is involved. If I can read the hand histories from disk like I can for Party, it will be pretty simple.

[YoureToast]

[ QUOTE ]
I do want to support other poker sites. As soon as it's fully working for the Party skins, I'll begin working on other sites.

As for how much work is involved. If I can read the hand histories from disk like I can for Party, it will be pretty simple.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately, I believe Party and skins are the only competitive sites that store HHs in files; my guess is that it will be quite a bit of work (although clearly possible) for you to add sites like Stars, UB and Paradise. GT+ does it, but it doesn't rely on local HH files.

[PokerAce]

Nobody has said anything about the name suggestion I asked about.

"First, I want to ask everyone what they think of the name "PT Hud" for the application. It stands for "PokerTracker Heads Up Display." It's short, simple and rolls off the tongue."

So, what does everyone think?

[YoureToast]

[ QUOTE ]
Nobody has said anything about the name suggestion I asked about.

"First, I want to ask everyone what they think of the name "PT Hud" for the application. It stands for "PokerTracker Heads Up Display." It's short, simple and rolls off the tongue."

So, what does everyone think?

[/ QUOTE ]

It'll work for me, but I still like "Poker Observer" beter. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

My domain name loan offer still stands.

[wdbaker]

PT HUD is good, it sounds like a classified military type project /images/graemlins/smile.gif

One Street at a Time
wdbaker Denver, Co

[PokerAce]

This thing is coming together a lot quicker than I anticipated. I'll tell you what guys, if you think the version you are using right now is good, just wait until you see this new version.

Open up a table, about two seconds after a new hand starts, you have stats on all the players (well, those that you have hands with). A player leaves the table? His stats are immediately removed. A player joins the table? His stats display almost immediately (after a new hand if neccessary). A player mucks his hand at showdown? You see his hand alongside the winner.

What I love about this is that it's always current with the stats. You never have to worry if the stats you see belong to this player or the guy who was sitting in that seat last hand. You never need to refresh because the way it's designed means it's always current.

I'm very excited about this. So much so that I've actually neglected my poker play to work on this. I hope I get to a point where I can quit soon because I need to make some money again.

I still need to do a few things before I can release a new version. I want to get support in for the player icons for those of you who use them (very simple). I need to add support for different fonts (also very simple). I also want to have a basic window interface so you won't have a big ugly console window running.

Anyway, I just wanted to let you guys know that good things are on the horizon. What I'm using right now, if you don't look at the interface, the functionality that this application provides is on par with, if not better than, what PlayerView provides. The only thing missing right now are a few stats, different font support and player icons. All of those are things I plan on getting in within the next day.

[MaxPowerPoker]

I can't wait! I actually started using PT HUD (like the name) last night and really like it. I had used GT+ for a long time.

Very excited about the new features. Keep up the good work!

By the way, you have been added to my list of blogs that I read regularly.

[bubbahotep]

Sounds good. Looking forward to the next release. Thanks for all your hard work.

[PokerAce]

Thanks guys. Please don't start using PT Hud as a name for this application. As a courtesy, I emailed Pat from PokerTracker about it and he prefers that I don't use it. I will respect his wishes.

[YoureToast]

"Poker Observer" /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[MaxPowerPoker]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks guys. Please don't start using PT Hud as a name for this application. As a courtesy, I emailed Pat from PokerTracker about it and he prefers that I don't use it. I will respect his wishes.

[/ QUOTE ]

How about "Poker HUD"? Of course you'd have to clear that with the inventor of poker.

[PokerAce]

There's already an application called Poker HUD. Nothing against the name, but I'm not really a fan of "Poker Observer"

[YoureToast]

fair enuf....you're still welcome to use my domain names (pokerobserver.com or PokerEnthusiast.com) free of charge if you desire.

[Nomad84]

[ QUOTE ]
The next version will have the stats disappear during showdown as well as showing the mucked cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Looking forward to the newest version. Personally, I don't mind the console window. I hope the GUI remains simple and efficient to avoid consuming limited resources. No comment on names since it doesn't really matter to me. I do agree that it should be something short or something that can be abbreviated with 2 or 3 letters though.

[MaxPowerPoker]

How about:
Hold 'em HUD
PT HUD (PT stands for Poker Table of course)

[PokerAce]

[ QUOTE ]
PT HUD (PT stands for Poker Table of course)

[/ QUOTE ]

Brilliant! Why didn't I think of that? I think this is the name I'm going to go with.

You guys want to see a screenshot of the new gui? Here you go:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y22/PokerAce/Screenshot-1.jpg

[MaxPowerPoker]

Looks good. Can I make a suggestion? How about including extra columns of table stats to assist in table selection?

[PokerAce]

You'll be able to put the table stats directly on the table. I wanted to keep the main window as clean and minimal as possible. Another problem with putting stats on the main window is that everybody will want different stats, and I'd rather not create a way to customize that because that would only cause confusion. Thanks for the suggestion though.

[MaxPowerPoker]

Is there a way to display my own stats since sitting at the table? Gametime+ has this feature (which I no longer use now since getting ?PT HUD?). It helped me to keep track of my table image.

I've looked through the .INI file and cannot come up with anything that looks like it would address that.

[PokerAce]

No, right now there's no way to display your own stats. I think it's a good thing to have though, so it will make its way in sometime soon.

[PokerAce]

Here's another quick update.

I'm extremely pleased with how fast this new version is coming together. As far as the meat of the application goes, the stat display and so forth, that portion is finished and working great. Right now I'm working on the user interface, which is going well.

I've decided that I'm going to go ahead and create a layout manager before I release this version. That means you will no longer need to edit a configuration file in order to position your stats. Of course, I will still have the configuration file, so you can change them manually if you want to, but the layout manager will make it easier and more accessible.

[bubbahotep]

Why not just call it "PokerAce" like your avitar name?

[Jarekb]

Actually PokerAce sounds good now that I think of it. My vote for PA.

[OrcaDK]

I'm with PokerAce too. I think it was a very nice move of you to ask Pat whether you could call it PT Hud - meaning Poker Tracker Hud. Now that he sad no, i think you should respect that, even though you change the meaning of PT to something else, we all still know PT as Poker Tracker.

Kudos on your work, it's coming along very nice!

[MaxPowerPoker]

Even though I suggested the name Poker Table HUD and would be eternally proud of having contributed the name to such a fine product...I too must affirm my preference for PokerAce as the name for this app. It's just so darn cool.

[tallstack]

I think PokerAce is a better name.

[PokerAce]

What do you guys think of "PokerAce Hud" or "PA Hud" for short? The long version is "PokerAce Heads Up Display"

[OrcaDK]

I don't like it. Just PokerAce, that's better.

[PokerAce]

Just PokerAce would be too confusing. Besides, I need a qualifier for this one if I'm going to develop a whole line of PokerAce software /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Oh, by the way. The layout manager is finished. I'm now just polishing some of the features up and there will be a new release very soon.

[MaxPowerPoker]

OK, the suspense is killing me. Do you know when you will release the next version? We are eager to check out the new features.

[PokerAce]

If things go well, you'll be able to download the new version tomorrow.

[Jarekb]

Anyway to get a sneak peak...say tonight, like a screenshot or two to wet our appetite?

[PokerAce]

Now why would you want to ruin the surprise? Only kidding, here's a few screenshots. I apologize for the quality of the layout manager screenshot, I really compressed it good. If you can't tell, those are grid points. The layout manager has snap-to-grid support. Makes it very easy to line up stats.

Main Window:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y22/PokerAce/screen_1.jpg


Layout Manager:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y22/PokerAce/laymgr_1.jpg

Like I said before, I think you guys are really going to like this new version. The only thing PlayerView and GameTime+ have up on me now is the hover stats. That's going to be one of the very next things I start working on.

[Jarekb]

So what ummm...say what prevents you from say putting it up tonight? Just out of curiosity that is.

[PokerAce]

I've been up for about 36 hours now. I can hardly see straight. I want to go through everything with a clear head before I release anything.

Good things come to those that wait /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Jarekb]

Yes yes, patience. I almost feel like a kid on Christmas /images/graemlins/smile.gif
Looks good from the screenshots though. I assume you can drag and place stats from that screen correct?

[krimson]

Snap-to-grid layout manger! This app is looking better and better everyday. I don't use the hoverstats in PlayerView, so your program just took 1st place in my book (assuming it works). If you add in Crypto support i'll never have to use gametime+ either!

[PokerAce]

Naturally, the stats are draggable, the layout manager wouldn't be very useful without it.

I sent a copy of this to my coach to be the first beta tester, and he sent me some suggestions. I'm going to implement a few of them, then I'll be uploading the application for everyone.

[PokerAce]

I don't play at the Crypto sites, so I know nothing about them. Do they write their hand histories to disk?

[krimson]

Yes, crypto sites write the HH to the disk, afaik they behave the same as Party skins. Ultimate Bet would also be doable using the Ultimate History tool.

[PokerAce]

If you guys didn't already see it, I posted an announcement about the release. Check it out!

[Nomad84]

I'm about to download the new version in a few minutes. I noticed one thing on the screenshot that could slightly improve the layout manager though. Is it possible to add a box to the layout manager to show where cards are displayed at showdown similar to what you have done to show the players' name boxes? I can figure out where they are eventually by trial and error, but it would be nice to be able to see this directly from the layout manager.

BTW, I also like the name PokerAce. You could always just use longer names for future programs. We all know that PT is the Holdem version. If you want the Omaha version, that's PT Omaha. You could use a similar naming scheme if the need arises. Even if you use the longer name (PA HUD) I think poeple will still refer to it more often as PA.

Off to download it right now...