WA/WB? Raise?

[Jaran]

So, the hand before I had had KK cracked by an Arag. The villian in this hand is very loose, pretty passive pf, somewhat to quite aggressive postflop. Who likes the line? Who doesn't and why? Thanks, as always, in advance.

-Jaran



Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif. MP2 posts a blind of $0.5.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 (poster) checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, UTG calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP2 folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (6.75 BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 8.75 BB

[popeye18]

Im raising this flop for sure. If im 3 bet then i would cap and call down if he bets out on the turn.

[KeysrSoze]

I think you have to raise the river, then grudgingly call a reraise.

[Jaran]

Why?

-Jaran

[Augster]

I think I'd play back at him on the flop. He may be betting AJos, hence, not raising UTG. But like you say, he's passive pre. I'd raise him on the flop and see if he calls.

If he does call, I'd still like to see a showdown for cheap, just to know what he was playing without a raise UTG. I'd hope he would try a CR on the turn, after your raise, and then I'd just check behind and call a river bet.

The flop may have completely missed him, say 9-9, and is just betting scare cards with so few folks in and figuring you raised with Axs.

[KeysrSoze]

Well, maybe not call a reraise, have to use your judgement. A guy "somewhat to quite" aggressive will be betting alot of hands, and theres alot more combinations with jacks or other pairs than trip kings. No straight draws, no flushes at the end, thats a dream against an agro player, you're more likely to be ahead than behind.

[bottomset]

I love hands with reads, soo much more interesting .. only mentioning this since all 15or so hand posts I've opened today, are copy/paste jobs

I think there are 3options

1. the way you did
2. raise the turn
3. raise the river

I think the best line has a lot to do with how broad of range he's betting here, whether he'll continue to bet a J, TT, straightdraw on the big streets, and how he reacts to being played back at

since he's very loose he prob plays most suited hands, Arag(s, and un), prob a fair bit of the Krags, most/all 2broadway hands .. and prob a number of offsuit connectors
since he's pretty passive preflop i don't think he's raising TT-down, maybe JJ and QQ(though its more likely he does raise those)

when he leads the flop since he's fairly aggro its prob something like

any pair(pocket or Jx)
QT
prob a fair # of various gutshots
Kx(though i think most fairly aggro opponents are c/ring a K at somepoint)

there isn't any FD out there, so i doubt he's betting that, though maybe Axs, or BDFD+gutshot type hand

when he leads the turn

its prob close to the same range, prob not betting the weaker gutshots as often, pretty sure he's betting a FD here if he did improve to it

since a fair # of hands he's betting aren't calling a river raise, but might still call a turn raise .. I think a turn raise is the play here

i think you are WA far more often than WB

[benkath1]

Why didn't you raise the flop? It'd be a little easier to play if that had happened. Cracked kings suck, but I hope that didn't change your play on this hand.

[bottomset]

[ QUOTE ]
Why didn't you raise the flop? It'd be a little easier to play if that had happened. Cracked kings suck, but I hope that didn't change your play on this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure the way Jaran played it is better than raising the flop

[Jaran]

Nope, the cracked KK didn't affect my play at all. I have reached a comfort level with my play that losing a hand doesn't affect the way I play the next one. I'll post my thoughts and results on this later. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

-Jaran

[benkath1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why didn't you raise the flop? It'd be a little easier to play if that had happened. Cracked kings suck, but I hope that didn't change your play on this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure the way Jaran played it is better than raising the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you. After reading you first reply, I can understand this. I agree with you completely, just not quite at that level. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[popeye18]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure the way Jaran played it is better than raising the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

I read your first post and still dont understand why raising the turn would be better here. If we raise the turn then we are gonna get called down by weaker hands but reraised by hands that beat us.

[milesdyson]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure the way Jaran played it is better than raising the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

I read your first post and still dont understand why raising the turn would be better here. If we raise the turn then we are gonna get called down by weaker hands but reraised by hands that beat us.

[/ QUOTE ]
the point is that even bad aggressive players have a hard time not slowplaying trip kings here. so he is going to be calling down a weaker hand more often than reraising trip kings (simply because the action usually means he doesn't have a king).

this flop and turn action is more consistent (imo) with QT or any J than it is with a king.

[Jaran]

One bump just cuz

-Jaran

[Jake (The Snake)]

I think I like a river raise better than a turn raise if villain is capable of folding. It would suck to raise the turn and have villain fold because we miss out on the extra bet he will make on the river.

A flop call is almost certainly correct though. I would agree with bottomset that this is a WA/WB hand where we are WA more often than usual.

[Henke]

[ QUOTE ]
since a fair # of hands he's betting aren't calling a river raise, but might still call a turn raise .. I think a turn raise is the play here


[/ QUOTE ]

How many hands would he call with on the river after calling the turn raise? Anything other than AJ, QQ? I think calling all the way is better than raising the turn, because there are lots of hands that the villain will surrender on the river after meeting some resistance on the turn. However, we'll loose more when he does have the king if we raise the turn.

[aK13]

Jaran, table 37753 (or Hippies Joint?)

I saw you raise preflop, get 3bet, then fold for 1 SB on the flop on a Qxx flop. What gives?

[Jaran]

AJo and I felt he had it...sometimes I play by feel. I don't have a problem w/a fold there. I put him on AA-TT, AK/AQ. I don't have a lot of outs against those hands, and could be drawing basically dead. Decided to fold and play another hand where I have an advantage.

-Jaran

Edit:the pot was not so big anyway. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[aK13]

[ QUOTE ]
AJo and I felt he had it...sometimes I play by feel. I don't have a problem w/a fold there. I put him on AA-TT, AK/AQ. I don't have a lot of outs against those hands, and could be drawing basically dead. Decided to fold and play another hand where I have an advantage.

-Jaran

Edit:the pot was not so big anyway. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough =).

[BlackRain]

I would re raise the flop. If he calls or re raises, check or call down unless an A shows up.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Why?

-Jaran

[/ QUOTE ]

Because he's aggressive, would generally checkraise a King, and there are a fair amount of draws an aggressive player could be betting.

I'd raise the turn.

Rob

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Jaran, table 37753 (or Hippies Joint?)

I saw you raise preflop, get 3bet, then fold for 1 SB on the flop on a Qxx flop. What gives?

[/ QUOTE ]

Lots of hands should be played that way, depending on position -- KJ, KTs, K9s, AJo, ATo...

[gopnik]

I like it, nice hand. Let him bluff into you if he's behind, and unless you can fold to a 3-bet on the flop, calling down is fine.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
calling down is fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

No it isn't. You're missing bets against this sort of opponent in the long run and that's a bad thing.

Rob

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
One bump just cuz

-Jaran

[/ QUOTE ]

Cuz I might've missed it otherwise. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

I like the WA/WB line, especially with the aggro Villan, but you left a bet on the table by not following through on the river. I call the flop and turn and then pop him on the river. If he 3-bets the river, depending on how aggro he is, I might even cap...the number of hands you lose to (KK/JJ/K-rag) are MANY fewer than the hands you beat (everything else) so I certainly think you're good here enough to raise/call and probably to raise/cap.

[Jaran]

UTG flips over K9o for the flopped trips, rivered boat. When I was playing the hand, I had decided to play WA/WB, with a plan on raising the river. But the poker daemon of weak-tight possessed me and I only called. Looking at it now, I like a turn raise the best, though an arguement can be made for waiting until the river.

-Jaran

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why?

-Jaran

[/ QUOTE ]

Because he's aggressive, would generally checkraise a King, and there are a fair amount of draws an aggressive player could be betting.

I'd raise the turn.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm not really seeing these draws. the villian only really has 4 outs at best here. if the flop were two-tone, i'd like a turn raise more. as is, it sounds like he's the type to fire the third bullet, so we make just as much when ahead by calling the turn.. but we could potentially fold a total bluff by raising him.

what's your plan if 3-bet on the turn?

[bottomset]

well I guess our aggro villian doesn't c/ring a K

[Jaran]

Nope /images/graemlins/wink.gif. Besides pf, I like the way he played the hand. A c/r on the flop or turn is how you would expect a K to play, so by betting out, he disguises his hand and represents a J. If the daemon hadn't siezed me, he would have gotten at least one more bet from me on the river, and prolly two, by taking this line.

-Jaran

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why?

-Jaran

[/ QUOTE ]

Because he's aggressive, would generally checkraise a King, and there are a fair amount of draws an aggressive player could be betting.

I'd raise the turn.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm not really seeing these draws. the villian only really has 4 outs at best here. if the flop were two-tone, i'd like a turn raise more. as is, it sounds like he's the type to fire the third bullet, so we make just as much when ahead by calling the turn.. but we could potentially fold a total bluff by raising him.

what's your plan if 3-bet on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

1) Villain is aggressive. This is important as his handrange goes way up.

2) QT, Q9, AT, T9 -- all of these are "draws" that villain could very conceivably bet-call. QT has 8 outs, the rest have 4 -- but the fact that they won't always bluff the river needs to be very strongly considered.

3) Nothing has been stated about villain bet-folding on scary boards. I don't see why we're considering it even reasonably likely that he's betting a complete bluff into hero very often, especially on this board.

I'm not raising the turn to "charge the draws" as much as I am raising to gain value against his likely hand, which is generally going to be some derivative of Jx (JT, QJ, etc). Sometimes I'll get 3-bet by a King that was playing straightforward and while that sucks, I'll still draw out occasionally (woo!) and sometimes I'll get 3-bet by a worse hand.

I don't see any significant advantage conferred by waiting for the river, especially given how often a hand like JT played aggresisvely will go bet-bet-check(call).

Rob

[btspider]

QT has 4 outs. i agree a pure bluff is not very likely, just saying its a possibility some non-zero % of the time here.

if he's not capable of folding a J and is capable of 3-betting a worse hand occasionally on the turn, then i'm all for a turn raise. i'm reading somewhat aggro and toning it down a bit from 6-max aggro.

if the flop were 4-way or 5-way instead of 3 and the flop action was similar, do you change your line?

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
QT has 4 outs. i agree a pure bluff is not very likely, just saying its a possibility some non-zero % of the time here.

if he's not capable of folding a J and is capable of 3-betting a worse hand occasionally on the turn, then i'm all for a turn raise. i'm reading somewhat aggro and toning it down a bit from 6-max aggro.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, didn't think about the OESD's A outs that are tainted. I still think there's enough out there to be raising this turn on the average.

Rob

[aK13]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Jaran, table 37753 (or Hippies Joint?)

I saw you raise preflop, get 3bet, then fold for 1 SB on the flop on a Qxx flop. What gives?

[/ QUOTE ]

Lots of hands should be played that way, depending on position -- KJ, KTs, K9s, AJo, ATo...

[/ QUOTE ]

He was on the Button I believe, got 3bet by BB. Mainly wanted to know what he had /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Jaran]

Actually, I was UTG and got 3bet by MP3 /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

-Jaran