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View Full Version : How bad is this: 44 vs. pfr?

keikiwai
06-20-2005, 11:32 PM
Is this the good, the bad, or the ugly?

Table w/ very bad players at BBJ. No spectacular reads. PFR is loose w/ his PFRs.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif. UTG posts a blind of $2.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, CO calls (CO is ALL IN), Hero calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls.

Tiny pocket pair w/ 1 post, 1 call, 1 pfr, and 1 cold call (all in) (UTG folds pf I think). According to SSHE lp call w/ any pocket if 3 people in the pot already. I assume MP1 won't fold.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, Hero calls, MP1 folds.

Backdoor str8t plus 2 outs for the 4.... wait... if the 4 falls A5 makes a str8t as does 56. Neither hand very likely but A5s is a possibility at this table, even from pfr.

But I do have a made hand. And after all what can I put PFR on that beats me besides a broadway pocket, possibly 99, but not 77?

So how many outs do I have?

Do you fold? Re-raise? Call?

Turn: (5.75 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Wohoo I'm open ended... 6outs... the 4 isn't even an out anymore, since if the 4 falls an A makes a str8t... high probability pfr has an A. But if he doesn't have an A, a 4 would beat his big pocket or anything else reasonable he has...

I'm getting 6.7 to 1 to call, and I need 6.7 to 1 for 6 outs.

River: (7.75 BB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, Hero...?

The K falls. Dangerous overcard for me (as opposed to the others on board so far). He could well have a K, but he could also have AQ, AJ, AT.... hmmm....

I may have the best hand w/ 44 unimproved...

Do you call?

Final Pot: 9.75 BB
<font color="#009B00">Main Pot: 9.75 BB, between MP3, CO, Hero and BB.</font>
einbert
06-20-2005, 11:36 PM
I like calling the flop, planning to raise a lot of turns.

This turn you can't fold to a three-bet. I'm not certain but I think just calling is probably right. Raising and calling a three-bet/folding the river UI might be better, not sure.

Given how you have played your hand, I think you should call the river. Villian might be betting an ace thinking that you will be scared of the K and fold a pair.
chief444
06-20-2005, 11:38 PM
Preflop call is fine.

I'd probably raise the flop here. After you call the flop you really should raise the turn. The way it played out you're now getting 8.75:1 on a call but you have 3 overs including a K and an all in CO who may have you beat for half of the pot anyway. So I may fold here. You won't have the tough river decision if you raise earlier though.
einbert
06-20-2005, 11:40 PM
[ QUOTE ]
After you call the flop you really should raise the turn

[/ QUOTE ]
Are you sure? Don't you think villian will three-bet an overpair here a lot of the time? Or no?
chief444
06-20-2005, 11:44 PM
I just realized BB is all-in in too...but I'm not sure if he's just in for one SB or what. Anyway...that leans me a little more towards a river fold (I thought it was anyway) and having two all-in opponents I think does make the preflop call a little more marginal than I first thought.
chief444
06-20-2005, 11:46 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Are you sure? Don't you think villian will three-bet an overpair here a lot of the time? Or no?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah. I wouldn't think twice about it especially with the OESD. I don't expect to get 3-bet very often there. I don't expect to get 3-bet by an overpair very often actually and obviously you're just against overcards some portion of the time.
einbert
06-20-2005, 11:49 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are you sure? Don't you think villian will three-bet an overpair here a lot of the time? Or no?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah. I wouldn't think twice about it especially with the OESD. I don't expect to get 3-bet very often there. I don't expect to get 3-bet by an overpair very often actually and obviously you're just against overcards some portion of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree not all the time. I am thinking that PFR is less likely to continue betting UI overcards with the all in player, and thus more likely to hold an overpair.

I think the turn decision is close, but I don't like raising the flop. Do you prefer raising the flop to raising the turn and if so why?
chief444
06-21-2005, 12:01 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I think the turn decision is close, but I don't like raising the flop. Do you prefer raising the flop to raising the turn and if so why?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I think I do here. A flop raise probably gets it HU against the PFR pretty often considering you're only hoping to get one other opponent out. And at that point you're looking pretty good against the all-in. Basically, when I read the hand just calling down and then being unsure on the river seemed really bad to me. But with the all-in it's probably not as bad as it seemed at first glance. I still do prefer to raise the flop though.