Tells

[slim]

I've recently read Caro's Book of Tells and I've been looking for tells when I play recently. Although the tells that he describes seem to make sense logically, I haven't noticed any realiable tells in the 2-3 sessions since I've read the book. For example, it states that when an opponent at's strong by directing his bets towards an opponent, it means that he is trying to intimidate and that usually means he is bluffing. I've found that this tell fails more than it works. Other tells that I see also seem to be as incorrect as often as they are correct. I doubt any of my opponents are giving off reverse tells since I am only playing 5/10 and most of them are weak players.
Another example is I look at my opponents' reaction to the flop instead of looking at the flop and find it quite ineffective. The book describes how if a player quickly glances at his chips, it means he will bet, or if he stares away and acts disinterested, he hit a monster. Although they make sense, I don't notice it to be true. Most of the time , the players reaches into their stack without even looking at it.

1) how important are tells for a 5/10 game?
2) in the course of a 8 hr session, do u notice at least 1 tell that you use or is it something you pick up once every 10 sessions?
3) do u actively look for tells or do you kind of just notice them inadvertently?

[Bob T.]

1) I think that the consensus is that at limit poker, tells have some use, but betting patterns, and pot size are more important considerations.

2) It depends, I think that once every eight hours I might see something that I recognize and have a name for. I have one very reliable tell on one of my live opponents, but it doesn't save me a bet often, because it hasn't occurred recently when I was in a pot. A couple of months ago, I stole a large pot based on a tell on another opponent.

On the other hand, I think that a lot occurs, at the not quite conscious level. How often do you correctly assess whether your opponent is raising on a draw, instead of a made hand. You might not know exactly why, but something in your past experience might tell you that this tempo, this bet placement, or some other mannerism that you don't consciously recognize gives you a clue as to what is happening now.

If you are paying attention, I think that this happens a lot more often than can be quantified, and probably factors in a lot on which way you go on borderline decisions. When I am playing well at live poker, I find that I am not surprised very often at what is showndown. Tonight, I played, and I got surprised a lot. (oh well /forums/images/icons/frown.gif )

3) Whenever, I see something that stands out, I kind of try acting like that in my mind to see how it feels. Then I watch and see what they showdown and try and correlate what I saw, what I felt, how the hand was played, and what they had. Sometimes I get something to use, sometimes I learn something about how my opponents think.

Good luck,
Play well,

Bob T.

[D.J.]

I think the tells you are asking about in limit poker are pretty much irrelevant, like the poster above me stated, betting patterns are much more useful. Certain tells that some people do, is like preflop when the pot has been raised, and you can tell that another player wanted to or started to 3-bet but just called instead will usually give you some info, or changes in their demeanor during a hand. The thing w/tells is that a given set of tells is useless b/c every player is different, and different people will react differently to any random situation. Your main tool for figuring people out and gaining information should just be basic logic and psychology, and asking yourself questions during the hand like why would he do this, why did he just call, why did he bet into the raiser, why did he check-raise the flop, the turn, etc. I find just being a logical person will answer a lot of questions for you during the course of a session and should help you make better decisions in the hands you're involved in.

-D.J.

[Mikey]

Tells are a small part of poker, you can't base your entire night on tells or entire session on tells and you can't be looking for them constantly because they are not always there. Betting patterns is something to look for.

You can't sit there and think that tells are a huge part of poker because if they were, psychologists would be the only players in the game as well as actors.

As far as tells go, you may be able to use them once in a while, not in every hand. Use Caro's video on tells and book of tells as a guide.

Experience Experience Experience is what will improve and clarify your judgement when acting correctly towards a tell.

As far as looking at the people before the flop, I do that too and what I find is that most younger people and newbies are starting too much at a person and making it too obvious, they don't even know what they are looking for, when i notice this I tend to send reverse tells and then I use my judgement to see how that opponnnet is reacting to my tell whether I should continue with my action or reverse, but just remember it's a small part of the game.

Later.

I hope this helps somewhat.

[slim]

It seems that the consensus is that tells are a very small part of limit poker and based on the games I've played, I certainly agree. But from reading Caro's book, I got the impression that it was a much bigger aspect of poker. I feel a little better now that I am not the only one winning without using much tells. I find when I am actively looking for tells, the discipline and concentration required to do so takes away from other aspects of my game......but I will keep an eye out for tells nonetheless.

[CFunk]

Tells seem to be a relatively small part of the lower limit games. I can't speak for the larger games because I haven't played in them. Two tells(kind of) that I have seen recently have been somewhat helpful. The first was a guy that would constantly hold some chips in his hand and fake a bet or call to get people to check to him. The second happened with a couple of different players in a couple of different hands. When the turn card paired the board the players hand started shaking when he bet. I folded. Another played called to the river only to see the full house.

[tewall]

What I think is amusing about the book is the dollar amounts he gives to the tells. "This tell is worth $13.47 an hour"

[Bob T.]

I could see in a game like draw or lowball, where tells might be a much more important part of the game, where there are only two betting rounds. If you could save a big bet, you might save 1/3 of the cost of playing a hand. If you are playing holdem, saving 1 big bet might only be 1/5 of the cost of the playing a hand. So tells would less valuable at holdem than at draw.

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[bernie]

there's a thread in the psych forum by noo yawk that you may find useful..

use the book as a guide, not as a definitive. understanding why some players will have a tell will help much more...use the book for ideas as to what to look for, not as the only things to look for.

for example, betting toward someone...he may just bet that way to avoid splashing the pot...say from the 5 seat in an overflowing pot...

isnt a betting pattern a 'tell' of possible hands the guy holds? sure it is. it's a little more subtle than a guy flinching off his chair, but it helps you narrow his hand down. add to that bet speed, and some other factors, and you could be on your way.

i wouldnt base a whole style on tell reading. just watch the table and if something catches your eye, something a little out of rythym, watch a little closer. many times it's easier to spot stuff in hands youre not involved in.

they arent a huge aspect of the game, profitwise, but can help in saving/making bets at times...no matter which limit...
the less hardened the player, the more he would be capable of tells, IMO. but even some beginners hide it very well. the more expressive the person is in general, the more likely to emote something through his play, i think.

you may notice 1 tell, but that type of hand may not come up with that player again for awhile, so you may not see it again till much later...

just dont juke yourself by putting so much emphasis on this aspect that youre forcing reads of tells that arent there. as many other posters mentioned, work on reading the bet patterns. many tells start there.

hope this helps a little...

b

[KSU78]

1) how important are tells for a 5/10 game?

They are important. On a scale of 1-10, I would give them a 5.

2) in the course of a 8 hr session, do u notice at least 1 tell that you use or is it something you pick up once every 10 sessions?

Actually, there are two tells that I use 1) is the player going to muck preflop and 2) does he want to raise but doesn't. They're frequency is dependent on the strength of the player but they are good indicators about how a player feels about a hand. In a weak game, both can happen once in 5 hands.

3) do u actively look for tells or do you kind of just notice them inadvertently?

I actively look for both of these tells because they are so common.

[SlyR]

Short answer: Screw tells.

Long answer: I'm not an expert by any stretch of the imagination, but in my own experience I've lost perhaps nearly as much money by misreading tells as I've gained by correctly reading them. I have enough trouble concentrating on strategy without having to augment the challenge by focusing on something that is so subjective that it borders on hocus-pocus.

Some very obvious involuntary tells, like pulsating neck veins and heavy breathing, will occassionally help - but not often enough that reading tells is a focus of my efforts. It's difficult enough to be a good poker player without tells, and tells alone won't increase your profits unless your training is extensive (like if you're a CIA interrogator or a TV psychic). Just my opinion.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Slim:

This is from my book Poker Essays, Volume II. It explains why you are not getting the results that you hoped for.

Area No.1: Reading tells. More tells are available in draw poker than in any other form of poker I have ever played. In fact, when I began to play hold’em, it was like “someone had turned the sound off.”

The reason for this is simple. Draw poker is the only game that I have ever played which did not have a blind or a forced bring-in. Everyone would ante, and if no one opened, everyone would ante again and we would play for a bigger pot — sometimes, but not always, at a higher limit. This meant that everyone had an interest in the pot even if they had a terrible hand.

Compare this to hold’em. If you pick up a bad hand, all you do is throw it away (unless you get a free play in the big blind). But in draw, if no one would open, your initial ante was still there.

This produced all sorts of opening tells. Sometimes it would seem that half the players were reaching for their chips preparing to open. Of course, none of them would.

This acting would then carry over to many other aspects of the game. When people held weak hands they would grab their chips as if to bet after the draw. If they became very disinterested, it was more likely they held a strong hand. If they were throwing their cards away prematurely, you had to be careful. And if they bet out of turn, they were often bluffing.

Best wishes,
Mason

[slim]

That's true......I would have never thought of that. Maybe I should play some draw poker.(I doubt it!). Like I said, I feel better that everyone seems to agree that tells are a small part of Holdem. I'll invest my efforts in other aspects of my game........

[Riverboat Cap'n]

I actually disagree with many about Hold Em tells. As my concentration in poker (and, in fact, my degree) is psychology, I find tells to be of the utmost importance. For the student of poker I couldn't recommend strongly enough a good book on body language, not specifically for poker. It sometimes annoys me that authors will make blanket statements like 'forceful betting and a glance in their opponents eyes will often tell of a bluff...' I much prefer Sklansky's advice on almost every play in _Advanced tactics..._ 'Depending upon your opponents....'
That being said, there is nothing more important in the table game than solid math, even if by rote memorization. Tournaments, however, are very different. I believe that it is possible to not even look at one's hole cards to win a hand... and that all one needs rely on is a superior observation of one's opponents than one's opponent's of said player.
Also, I think relying on tells is 'fancy play' and not integral for the average winner, I think it is one of the skills that separates the great winners from the winners... (I'm not sure I qualify as either, BTW.. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif)

[Pot-A]

I have a copy of that book, and after much consideration I would say it's utterly worthless.

On the other hand, I make/save a fair amount of money from tells. The key is to realize everybody's different. If you start basing decisions on so-called "generic" tells, get ready to be sucker-punched by decent players. The beautiful thing is people seem to have real trouble recognizing signals they're sending out. This is why I don't play online. In my local B&M cardroom I'm always on the lookout for:
1) The guy who takes of his baseball cap and runs his hand through his hair when you raise him and he has a monster. It's so reliable I'll throw away AA when the flop is AKK, since I know he has pocket kings.
2) The guy who carefully stacks his bet when he has a hand but flips the chips way out in front of him when he's bluffing.
3) The guy who opens his eyes really wide when he thinks he has the best hand and you bet into him.
4) The three or four people who, upon being the first person in the pot from late position, grab enough chips for a single bet, then look up to find the button and grab the second bet. Almost always a hand like Ax or KQ.
5) My girlfriend, who looks intently at the board (like a cat who's about to pounce) when she's slowplaying, but just looks... unhappy when she's drawing. I feel a little guilty about taking her money, but heck, she gets it back eventually.

These are individuals I play with all the time, and those tells have saved me/cost them thousands in the pots we've been in together. Your question about the frequency of the tells is misguided - on some tables you don't pick up anything, on others it's a constant stream of data. It's a question of who's sitting around the felt. A better question is "out of ten people, how many give off a reliable signal?" The answer is... not sure, I'll have to think about that.

The counter intuitive thing is I see more tells at the medium limits than low limits. Usually these are people who've been playing for years, so they're somewhat set in their ways (making the read more reliable), but they can't crack the higher limits (hmmm... I wonder why).

I actively look for tells. Whenever someone shows down a monster, replay the entire hand in your mind. Think about where he was looking, what he was doing with his hands, how long it took him to bet, all that stuff. Ditto for semi-bluffs that pay off when he catches his card. I have a friend who tries to study each player intently in turn, but I haven't had much luck with that myself, since most people don't have an interesting hand often enough to be able to hold my concentration.

BTW, it doesn't hurt to have friends. One of mine pointed out a tell of mine I never would have realized on my own. I used to think people who wear hats and sunglasses were just being grandiose, but a month ago I ran out and invested in a set myself.

p.s. There is one generic tell I've never seen anybody fake. If someone's hand is shaking when he puts out his chips, expect a full house or better.

[ACPlayer]

Tells add a lot of value in middle games. More, in my opinion, than some writers claim (see Mason's essays).

A couple of things, among others, that I always look for:
- Chip grabbers before their turn (look for patterns)
- Telegraphs of the players behind you preflop
- Re check of cards when a 3 flush hits the board.

Could give you some more, but would need you to send payment to paypal /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

Stud players have a lot more tells. I'll give you one that is kind of fun. Playing 15-30 in AC. A player who constantly played with his upcards. I was about to say something when I realized that he always moved a card that hit his hand (for example made him 2 pair) into the door position. He ALWAYS did this -- terrific!

[Clarkmeister]

"p.s. There is one generic tell I've never seen anybody fake. If someone's hand is shaking when he puts out his chips, expect a full house or better. "

I hadn't seen this one fail either before yesterday. Dynasty and I were at Mandalay Bay and a player who raised preflop was shaking uncontrollably as he bet the river with a K5589 board. Turns out he was stone cold bluffing with AQ and got caught. Dude was simply very nervous, lol.

[jebronie]

Hi slim,
i find you are relying too much on tells in your games. So, much it could be doing more harm than good. my suggestion is to use your new knowledge of tells as an edge. An edge in poker is something that benefits you in the very long run. If a tell saves you 1 big bet per seesion or steals you 1 small pot than it has done its job. Add your new knowledge to your bag of tricks but dont think tells are the answer because they are not. GL

[Mikey]

just another add on to what clarkmiester said..........I was watching a 20-40 stud game where this old man bet into another guy....

His board read 4 6 9 K on the river he bet out....and stared at the other guy......he started shaking his hand....his mouth was shaking....uncontrollably....it looked like he was caught in an Ice Storm.

"I was like.....this guy has 4 Kings"

the other guy thought about it.....and called....one won with a pair of Queens......

Most of the time though, the uncontrollable shaking means a release of tension and they do have a monster.....that is for most people.

[Ed Miller]

- Re check of cards when a 3 flush hits the board.

Grrr... this is one of my favorite tells, but I got duped by it the other day. Apparently the guy just wanted to admire his nut flush before he administered a three-big-bet-sized whoopin on me.

[Pot-A]

Yeah, I make sure to sometimes check my cards when I make the nut flush for that reason. Not every time, mind you...

This one is so obvious people fake it with some regularity.

[JayKon]

OK, I've read most (but not all) of the replys and will agree that tells are a small part of any hold-em game. However, in low-limit, there are more tells available than in the higher games. Also, the betting patterns ARE terriably important no matter the limit.

As to the 'glance at the chips' tell; if I've pegged the player as a weak, or inexperienced player, I've found it to be near 100% accurate - period. I've been using it for about 15 years now.

It is also a tell that is very hard to learn to spot.

[Graham]

The Cap'n: "For the student of poker I couldn't recommend strongly enough a good book on body language, not specifically for poker."

So, Cap'n, what book(s) would you recommend for us poker players to learn a bit about body language to help us out..? Recomendations appreciated.

G