Too aggressive?

[CashFlo]

Live 2/4 game. I had been there for 15 minutes, and noticed that the table (and villain [UTG] ) was EXTREMELY loose. No reads on their aggression/passiveness. I had no image because: 1. i dont think these players even bothered to make a read. 2. i had been there for 15 minutes.

(2/4 Live Hold'em) (10 handed)
Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="red">Villain Raises UTG</font>, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, <font color="red">Hero Reraises</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, SB calls, BB calls, <font color="red">Villain Caps</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="red">Hero Calls</font>, MP2 calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (23 SB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="red">Villain Bets</font>, <font color="red">Hero Raises</font>, MP2 folds but shows A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="red">Villain Calls</font>.

Turn: (13.5 BB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="red">Villain Checks</font>, <font color="red">Hero Bets</font>, <font color="red">Villain Calls</font>

River: (15.5 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="red">Villain Checks</font>, <font color="red">Hero Bets</font>, <font color="red">Villain Raises</font>, <font color="red">Hero Calls</font>

Final Pot: 19.5 BB

Sooo...too aggressive? I was hoping the guy was playing his overcards or his lower pocket pair aggressively.

I'm not sure, but I think my river bet isnt so good.

[mosta]

it kind of rankles to be raised on the river, and the only way you think you can make yourself feel better is to fold and be right. but really it's insignificant, because you would have been perfectly happy to have capped the flop and that's the same amount of money. so you put those two SB's on the river instead of the flop. no big deal. you make an appropriate investment in your hand. you might say that this outlook is to disregard the details of the hand. but you don't need to labor over the impossibly close decision of whether he could be bluffing. (circular argument: 'he couldn't be bluffing' therefore it would be a great time to bluff...)

[mosta]

the question is, do you believe the 6 improved his hand. I don't. so should you three-bet? probably not b/c that will fold out all the pure bluffs (but not AA). but it should get a call from QQ and other big PP's. still I probably wouldn't unless I knew he was a true idiot. it's too likely he has FH and wanted to make sure not to fold out AK with his turn raise.

[DawnToDusk]

I think this was a good play. Your big pairs play well against loose opponents and even for someone being loose I don't someone would raise under the gun with x6. So I might even reraise at the end. Dont be afraid to lose hands with big pocket pairs at a very loose table. Its gonna happen but your bound to win more than your fair share at these tables.

Plus the flop was a perfect one for you.

[toss]

I have no idea what you're talking about.

[shadow29]

I think that this hand is pretty standard.

Sucks if his A6 outdrew you or whatever.

[ihardlyknowher]

Everything looks good up until the river. For a bet to be correct, you need to be sure that 2 things are true:
1. villain could have TT;
2. if villain has AK, he will call.

In general, I don't think that is the case in this hand. Check behind.

[mosta]

you shouldn't think twice about calling this river raise, not even for a second. (and you can consider reraising.)

[shadow29]

[ QUOTE ]
Everything looks good up until the river. For a bet to be correct, you need to be sure that 2 things are true:
1. villain could have TT;
2. if villain has AK, he will call.

In general, I don't think that is the case in this hand. Check behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

I strongly disagree.

[ihardlyknowher]

[ QUOTE ]
you shouldn't think twice about calling this river raise, not even for a second. (and you can consider reraising.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Reraising here is horrible IMO.

[ihardlyknowher]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Everything looks good up until the river. For a bet to be correct, you need to be sure that 2 things are true:
1. villain could have TT;
2. if villain has AK, he will call.

In general, I don't think that is the case in this hand. Check behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

I strongly disagree.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

[toss]

Okay thats a lot clearer. I don't like 3-betting though since getting capped sucks.

[mat]

you are missing a lot of value betting opportunities. unless youre kidding. the river is a no brainer bet. youre analisis about TT AK is worthless he is playing against a very loose player who could have anything.

[d10]

Your river bet is fine. You have no reason to believe that Villian has a better hand than yours and he seems perfectly happy to call you down. Not betting here would be crazy.

[shadow29]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Everything looks good up until the river. For a bet to be correct, you need to be sure that 2 things are true:
1. villain could have TT;
2. if villain has AK, he will call.

In general, I don't think that is the case in this hand. Check behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

I strongly disagree.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Villain has done nothing to show me that he has me beat in this hand. After his initial flop bet, he has been nothing but passive. The board pairing doens't do much to change my desire to value bet the hell out of this guy.

I'm not sure about this guy's capping standards, but I think that any overpair to the board calls. AJ calls. Random overcards call. I want to value bet this guy.

[Jake (The Snake)]

I don't get it. Why can't villain have QQ, A7, 99, 88 too among other hands.

[ihardlyknowher]

[ QUOTE ]
he is playing against a very loose player who could have anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um ... villain capped preflop. Loose doesn't equal maniac.

[mat]

to me if this is a loose player i call the raise and expect to win a lot of times here. this looks like someone trying to find a bad excuse to bluff. the play looks pretty standard to me

[ihardlyknowher]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't get it. Why can't villain have QQ, A7, 99, 88 too among other hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

QQ is possible. But he capped preflop so the other holdings are not, unless villain is a complete maniac. But Hero would know this after 15 minutes at the table.

[shadow29]

[ QUOTE ]
you shouldn't think twice about calling this river raise, not even for a second. (and you can consider reraising.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see what's wrong with calling this river raise. Could be bluffing, could have "improved" to two pair.

A re-raise is pretty terrible because if he caps, you have to fold, and he folds a bluff. ugh.

[ihardlyknowher]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure about this guy's capping standards/quote]

I would think they are TT+ &amp; AK, unless he is a maniac. But Hero would know this after 15 minutes at the table.

[mat]

i think you may be putting to much into the pre flop action. i have seen so many times where someone raises and then is re raised then caps it with a lot less of a hand. it would be a little different if the pot had already been bet and raised then the player caps. i see the pre flop cap in this hands situation to mean a lot less

[ihardlyknowher]

[ QUOTE ]
i think you may be putting to much into the pre flop action. i have seen so many times where someone raises and then is re raised then caps it with a lot less of a hand. it would be a little different if the pot had already been bet and raised then the player caps. i see the pre flop cap in this hands situation to mean a lot less

[/ QUOTE ]

I think we have to agree to disagree here.

[shadow29]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i think you may be putting to much into the pre flop action. i have seen so many times where someone raises and then is re raised then caps it with a lot less of a hand. it would be a little different if the pot had already been bet and raised then the player caps. i see the pre flop cap in this hands situation to mean a lot less

[/ QUOTE ]

I think we have to agree to disagree here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm still not sure why you're not value betting here?

I can't put villain on a range of hands that it is incorrect to value bet here. Can you? This is, of course, before the river c/r.

[ihardlyknowher]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't put villain on a range of hands that it is incorrect to value bet here. Can you? This is, of course, before the river c/r.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes- AA, AK, KK, QQ, JJ, &amp; TT. If he won't call you with AK, then you should not value bet. OR, if he won't cap PF with TT (thus, we rule it out), you should not value bet. Because, in either case, you will not win 55% of the time that he calls.

[shadow29]

Assuming he both folds AK and doesn't cap TT

AA- Lose (6 combos)
KK- Chop (1 combo)
QQ- Win (6 combos)
JJ Lose (3 combos)

Thats 9 lose to 7 win/chop.

Given that JJ would have definetly spoken up on the turn, I think that we can discount that heavily. Take away 2 combos and thats 7 to 7. If he shows me KK I'm definetly betting, btw.

However, he will call with AK sometimes here. He will cap with TT sometimes. If we just put these at 1 combo total it's +EV to bet.

And his capping standards could be looser too.

Lemme know if some math is wrong, sorta pre-occupied right now.

[ihardlyknowher]

We have seen an A &amp; a Q. Thus, only 3 combos each for AA and QQ (and 6 for AK). Not sure it matters though.

I was not discounting JJ as much. After thinking about it, that is probably wrong. I give.