I'm completely miffed at this call by another 2+2er

[Sponger15SB]

NL Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee
Level:7 Blinds(150/300)

Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 1: Sponger ( $2310 )
Seat 5: Anamik ( $1900 )
Seat 6: 2+2er ( $2760 )
Seat 7: rolos13 ( $1030 )

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Sponger [ Xd Xs ]
rolos13 is all-In [1030]
Sponger folds.
Anamik folds.
2+2er calls [730].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 6c, Jc, 5d ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Ac ]
** Dealing River ** [ 7h ]
rolos13 shows [ Kc, Ts ] high card ace.
2+2er shows [ 3s, 7c ] a pair of sevens.
2+2er wins 2210 chips from the main pot with a pair of sevens.
rolos13 finished in fourth place.
rolos13 has left the table.

[durron597]

He has pot odds to call even if he knows you have AK.

[ilya]

I am pretty sure "miffed" means "irriated." Do you mean "confused"? I am also. I don't like this call at all.

[psyduck]

Why were you miffed?

[Nick B.]

[ QUOTE ]
He has pot odds to call even if he knows you have AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

He definitely couldn't have a pair.

[stupidsucker]

I don't think the call was all that bad... Perfect? no probably not, but I wasnt there so I dont know the mechanics of how the table was playing.

Perhaps he was multitabling and made a fast call based on pot odds. He had + chip EV to call and getting the chip edge going into the money also has its advanatges. Losing 730 chips hardly makes a dent in him.

The small stack really wont be small enough (after a successful steal) to push with any 2 against the other 2 opponents, nor will his stack be a tower if he folds.

In short

If he calls and loses he hardly loses anything
If he calls and wins he gains 100% chance for ITM and a very nice chip lead going into it, with position on you.

It's not like you were a shoe in for ITM if he folded.

Is my sarcasm detector on tilt?

[Sponger15SB]

[ QUOTE ]
Is my sarcasm detector on tilt?

[/ QUOTE ]

No I'm being serious.

[adanthar]

Oh hey, a Gigabet call horribly misapplied.

[Matt R.]

I like it too, simply because of the chip stack situation. He can afford to lose 730, and still be dead even with the rest of the field. If he wins, he's in a commanding position to take first.

[wookie]

Looks like a variation of the Q3o play...? 2+2er can afford to spend t730 on a call to defend his BB. He is getting decent odds (roughly 2:1) to call. He will have t2070 even if he loses and the message about his future BBs has been sent. I don't see that this is bad...? - w

ps: "miffed"??? You got ITM!

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
I like it too, simply because of the chip stack situation. He can afford to lose 730, and still be dead even with the rest of the field. If he wins, he's in a commanding position to take first.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh hey, a Gigabet explanation horribly misapplied.

[psyduck]

Despite this stack advantage, 2+2er still managed to lose the heads-up because he was horribly weak-tight.

[wookie]

[ QUOTE ]

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Sponger [ Xd Xs ]
rolos13 is all-In [1030]
Sponger folds.
...


[/ QUOTE ]

Note that OP is not the victim... - w

[Sponger15SB]

[ QUOTE ]
If he wins, he's in a commanding position to take first.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not when I'm at the table!

holla

[Matt R.]

Why? He's still got tons of folding equity even if he calls and loses. Two steals = 900 chips; more than he's losing if he makes the call and loses. I think it's a good spot to take this risk and play for first.

Edit -- Oh yeah, at a weak table I prefer a fold because bubble play will be so bad. But at a table with good bubble players, I like the call. Therefore, since Sponger's playing, I like the call (see his post below) /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
I like it too, simply because of the chip stack situation. He can afford to lose 730

[/ QUOTE ]

Being a little nicer, here's a part of why it's a bad call, other than the whole 'exactly 2:1 with 73o' thing:

When he loses, as several people have pointed out, he'll have exactly 2030 chips.

Now, when Sponger properly pushes two cards on the next hand, he will have to ______ his blind?

As I said, Gigabet hand horribly misapplied.

[psyduck]

Yeah anyway, I'll just come out and say, I was the one who made that call.

Obviously, I did it because I had the odds to call, and calling and losing isn't a big loss to my stack, whereas calling and winning would put in a good lead. I didn't make the call immediately (took out calculator and did some math) because I was multitabling.

Anyway, this hand is subtle and nice, because even if it was 1 chip back to me, I should be folding in some cases to keep the bubble alive. However, I knew that the other big stack was a 2+2er as well, and that he would see through my constant pushes. So I thought that having a chip advantage would work to my benefit, which is why I made the call.

Hope that this hand sparks some debate, as it already has /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Matt R.]

[ QUOTE ]
Now, when Sponger properly pushes two cards on the next hand, he will have to ______ his blind?

[/ QUOTE ]

"Protect" if his hand is pretty good. Fold if not, then steal the next two or three hands to make up for the tiny amount of chips he lost from calling 730.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Now, when Sponger properly pushes two cards on the next hand, he will have to ______ his blind?

[/ QUOTE ]

"Protect" if his hand is pretty good

[/ QUOTE ]

wrong, I'll let others elaborate

[Luminous Mist]

There is only one problem I see with your call here....it is simply unprofitable at just about any textured table you are at. I certainly don't understand how calling and losing does nothing to your stack.

Oh well....

Luminous

[stupidsucker]

I second guessed thinking, but then using the SNG-A(btw we need an offical nick for this)

Anyways the tool shows the call to be slightly negative if you put the Allin push range 22+, and any two broadway.

The tool doesnt take in consideration the stealing power and the extra strength gained from the big stack he will have going ITM.

Cant say for sure he really thought it all through, but at a quick glance this is a pot odds call good enough to risk it.

I get miffed all the time.. allllll the time. vent away sir.

[augie00]

I do not like this call.

I would probably call here with any paint, a hand like 89s or 9Ts, but not with a godawful hand like 73o. The reason being even if you make a hand with 73o a lot of the time it won't even be the best hand. Making a hand with paint or something like 89s is usually a lot stronger.

[psyduck]

Okay, seems like the majority (thus far) disagree with the call. Is it a marginal mistake, or is it horribly wrong?

FWIW, I KNEW that the other big stack was a 2+2er, so he would be pushing random junk frequently. This brings up the question of what to do when you know that another opponent is playing like this: do you pick a good ace/king to gamble, or do you fold and play your own game (which is to push any two frequently yourself?) There was another hand a while back where there were 5 or so equal stacks at the table, and a 2+2er pushed 5xBB into my BB. I made the call with ATo because, again, his range is wide, and if I call, I'll have 10BB while the other 4 stacks have 5BB.

I think I'm horribly misapplying Gigabet here. Please correct me /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Matt R.]

By "pretty good", I mean better than a 3-2 favorite against Sponger's range. Unless the other players fold too much on the bubble, then I'd wait for a better hand and steal more instead. Either way, I still like the call because it's not hard to make up 730 in chips with the blinds this high and your stack situation should you lose.

[freemoney]

2+2'er by no stretch of imagination means good player

[Luminous Mist]

[ QUOTE ]

Now, when Sponger properly pushes two cards on the next hand, he will have to <font color="red">fold</font> his <font color="red">small</font> blind?


[/ QUOTE ]

But at least can push on Sponger's BB the hand afterwards.

I don't even see how calling this here has anything to do with Block Theory...once the bubble is dead, being able to leverage big stack pressure seems much less than what it could be. Oh, and the 2+2er will actually *possess* the big stack if he/she folds here....and most likely will not if he/she calls.

Luminous

[stupidsucker]

not to mention that people will think twice about pushing on his BB again.

Its very possible he knew you would hate this, and was thinking more long term then short term. If this were 5 handed it would have been a perfect play.

I like his call. Expect to see it from me too. If he knows how to play ITM properly then he has made a good call both chip EV and $ EV.

[Matt R.]

Hey, I like it psyduck, especially since it sounds like there were other good players on the bubble besides yourself. And if I like it, that's all that matters /images/graemlins/grin.gif. If the other players called too much on the bubble though, I prefer a fold and let them self-destruct. You could get yourself into a lot of trouble by continuing to steal if they call too much with only 2K in chips.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, seems like the majority (thus far) disagree with the call. Is it a marginal mistake, or is it horribly wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

In the middle.

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, I KNEW that the other big stack was a 2+2er, so he would be pushing random junk frequently. This brings up the question of what to do when you know that another opponent is playing like this: do you pick a good ace/king to gamble, or do you fold and play your own game (which is to push any two frequently yourself?)

[/ QUOTE ]

Either or, but it doesn't matter what he's pushing when you have 73o unless it's 63o.

Anyway, since we're talking about Gigabet calls: when you are ITM with 3500, your extra 'chip block' is worth a lot less, not more, than when you are 1 chip ahead of everyone else on the bubble. This much should be intuitive.

[curtains]

oh my god this has nothing to do with gigabet it has to do with a remarkable concept called "POT ODDS". There are some other small facotrs involved but mainly this is simply a pot odds problem.

[Luminous Mist]

[ QUOTE ]

oh my god this has nothing to do with gigabet it has to do with a remarkable concept called "POT ODDS".

[/ QUOTE ]

So you call here? Or you fold here?

How close do you think it is?

Luminous

[adanthar]

Pot odds are a great reason to make this call when you're getting 2.5:1 or when you have, say, 76s or something.

Exactly 2:1 on 73o when losing leaves you in second and not first...yuck.

[curtains]

Probably I'd fold...73o is a bit disgusting. Forgive my intuitive and non mathematically based answer.

[Matt R.]

[ QUOTE ]
oh my god this has nothing to do with gigabet it has to do with a remarkable concept called "POT ODDS". There are some other small facotrs involved but mainly this is simply a pot odds problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

What I meant to say. Pot odds and I feel the stack situation allows you to make a neutral chip EV call here since you'll be fine if you lose. Way to simplify things curtains.... Oh yeah, Gigabet Gigabet Gigabet /images/graemlins/ooo.gif.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]

Probably I'd fold...73o is a bit disgusting. Forgive my intuitive and non mathematically based answer.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given the last week on the forums, "Gigabet call" is my intuitive and non mathematically based answer /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[psyduck]

No I was "influenced" by Gigabet also because losing still puts me at the second biggest stack, whereas winning makes me the biggest stack where the next stack is half my size.

Anyway I know this is a little wrong because it's MARGINAL by pot odds alone, but by bubble play, I should try to maintain a larger stack so that I still have Sponger covered so that I can push any two the next 5 hands.

[curtains]

Yeah but here are some advantages to folding too...the chips you lose are pretty meaningful. Other advantages to calling are that this guy, if you play with him a lot, will understand that you make pot odds based decisions like this and have a lot more fear towards calling you.

However I'd still fold 73o.

[Matt R.]

Well yeah, that too. Didn't include it in that post, but I said it earlier. I think people are underestimating the advantage you will have with 4K in chips here if you win. Even though the bubble's over, people still don't want to call off all their chips with a marginal hand. Having double everyone's chips gives you leverage regardless of whether you're ITM or not (more so with 4 left, but I still think it's useful after the bubble bursts).

[Freudian]

It seems to me that the new fad around here is that a big stack is not worth protecting but a slightly bigger one is infinitely desireable.

[stupidsucker]

Great topic, but my honest opinion is that its just too close to matter.

I enjoy being the minority sometimes...This is one of those cases where I am not playing devils advocate. I really think the call is good enough for the right style of play, but just not worth arguing over.

The very fact that this thread has exploded is proof enough to me that this his call was EV due to the mental strain it put on you and would put on so many others that just wouldnt say a word. Instead they would jot in their notes that he is a loose caller.

Caller may not have had all of this in mind, but accidently I think he has made an Aplus move.

Bravo

[imported_machine]

was it me by any chance,sounds familuar?

[Matt R.]

[ QUOTE ]
It seems to me that the new fad around here is that a big stack is not worth protecting but a slightly bigger one is infinitely desireable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Almost. I'd say it's that a slightly big stack is not worth protecting, but a bigger stack is infinitely desireable.

[IMTheWalrus8]

I just wanted to point out that it seems like most of you are misreading this hand. 2+2er is in the BB, so if he loses he has 1730, not 2030, and if he folds he has 2460.

3940 if he calls and wins
2460 if he folds
1730 if he calls and loses

I think this is a fold. IMO there *is* a big difference b/w 2460 and 1730 in this situation, and 37o sucks.


[ QUOTE ]
NL Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee
Level:7 Blinds(150/300)

Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 1: Sponger ( $2310 )
Seat 5: Anamik ( $1900 )
Seat 6: 2+2er ( $2760 )
Seat 7: rolos13 ( $1030 )

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Sponger [ Xd Xs ]
rolos13 is all-In [1030]
Sponger folds.
Anamik folds.
2+2er calls [730].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 6c, Jc, 5d ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Ac ]
** Dealing River ** [ 7h ]
rolos13 shows [ Kc, Ts ] high card ace.
2+2er shows [ 3s, 7c ] a pair of sevens.
2+2er wins 2210 chips from the main pot with a pair of sevens.
rolos13 finished in fourth place.
rolos13 has left the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

[stupidsucker]

[ QUOTE ]
I just wanted to point out that it seems like most of you are misreading this hand. 2+2er is in the BB, so if he loses he has 1730, not 2030, and if he folds he has 2460.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am well aware of the above statement. I still think its a fine call. My first post was intuitive, my second was based on ET.<font color="white">eastbay's tool</font>

[Matt R.]

Ick... you're right. Didn't realize the the stack size was before posting. I vote fold!

Edit -- I thought it was very close initially, and this sways my decision.