PLO8 hand 1

[gergery]

Party Poker (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

PLO8 $200 game. Loose, call-y table.

Preflop:
2 limps
MP ($149) limps with 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif
MP1 ($238) limps with 477Q
1 limp
Button ($270) with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/club.gif raises the max to $17
All limpers call, pot is $102 for flop

Flop: 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>

MP goes all in, MP1 calls, BUtton pushes, MP1 calls.

MP1 was retarded and providing a nice overlay, but
Comment on MP's play?
Comment on Button's play?

[Phat Mack]

[ QUOTE ]
MP1 was retarded and providing a nice overlay, but
Comment on MP's play?
Comment on Button's play?

[/ QUOTE ]

MP: Moving with top and bottom at a made-low board seems desperate. I don't like it at all--especially at a "call-y" table.

Button: I like the pre-flop raise. He has an interesting PLO8 hand with TT and an AhXh, plus he's got the A2 as an "escape." The pre-flop raise might have purchased some breathing room on the flop, but in this case it didn't.

On the flop, Button has missed his Tens and missed his hearts. I'd fold this flop--it's not what I was looking for.

JMO, Mack

[BlueBear]

Rotten preflop calls by MP and MP1. After the flop, the pot is too big relative to their remaining stack sizes so there's little choice but to go all-in. Good play by the button.

[Ribbo]

Raising with A2TT is fine considering the table he is on and the players who will call his raise with hands such as 2348. On that flop shoving A2TT is fine for the same reasons given.

[JoshuaMayes]

[ QUOTE ]
Raising with A2TT is fine considering the table he is on and the players who will call his raise with hands such as 2348. On that flop shoving A2TT is fine for the same reasons given.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Tailgunner]

I'm not fond of MP's pre-flop play (well, I would be if I was Button.. keep valuing those baby flushes /images/graemlins/wink.gif ) Double-suited does not mean automatically playable, even with a decent low hand. I don't like the flop move either, out of position, against someone who pot-raised preflop, with non-nut straight draws and no ace on the board (six handed - someone has got to have a lock, or at worst a counterfeited low with an ace and a redraw... in which case anything that fills his straight relieves the low.) Just because it's a big pot compared to his stack doesn't mean he has the odds to push on what is probably going to be a split when he's drawing to both sides.

Good job by the button. I'd have been worried about getting quartered after the flop, but holding a nut with weak action pre-flop and given your read of the table I'd probably have played on, and if I had I certainly would have made MP1 pay for the draw too.

[Rococo]

With that much going in preflop, can it possibly be correct for the Button to fold here? I agree that he will be quartered and/or counterfeited a decent percentage of the time, but is it often enough to justify a fold?

[Phat Mack]

[ QUOTE ]
With that much going in preflop, can it possibly be correct for the Button to fold here? I agree that he will be quartered and/or counterfeited a decent percentage of the time, but is it often enough to justify a fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

Best-case scenario: Button is not quartered, in which case he is laying 2:1 on his money. For every additional $1 he puts in the pot, he can win an additional $.50.

Not the worst, but a worse-case scenario is that he is quartered, where for every $1 he puts in the pot, assuming 3 players, he gets back .75, losing .25. He can also end up with 1/6 or nothing at all.

Button's got a pot-sized bet and a call in front of him. (I'm assuming that MP had $132 in front of him when the flop went down--poster has him going all in.) There are two players yet to act behind him. There's no reason to assume that he's got the only low. Does he really want to lay 2:1 in this situation? The pot equity that his A2 gives him is at best &lt; $50, but more likely &lt; $25. He can't shoot $220 at the pot, laying 2:1 on most of it, trying to protect it.

Too, there's no bet equity here. Neither MP nor MP1 are going anywhere.

Button's problem is that he has no viable prospects for high. PLO8 is about scooping, and much more frequently, three-quartering pots. He needs to be in this situation when he flops a Ten or a couple of hearts. Then he can dish it out to someone playing for half 'a pot.

[JoshuaMayes]

[ QUOTE ]

Best-case scenario: Button is not quartered, in which case he is laying 2:1 on his money. For every additional $1 he puts in the pot, he can win an additional $.50.

Not the worst, but a worse-case scenario is that he is quartered, where for every $1 he puts in the pot, assuming 3 players, he gets back .75, losing .25. He can also end up with 1/6 or nothing at all.

Button's got a pot-sized bet and a call in front of him. (I'm assuming that MP had $132 in front of him when the flop went down--poster has him going all in.) There are two players yet to act behind him. There's no reason to assume that he's got the only low. Does he really want to lay 2:1 in this situation? The pot equity that his A2 gives him is at best &lt; $50, but more likely &lt; $25. He can't shoot $220 at the pot, laying 2:1 on most of it, trying to protect it.

Too, there's no bet equity here. Neither MP nor MP1 are going anywhere.

Button's problem is that he has no viable prospects for high. PLO8 is about scooping, and much more frequently, three-quartering pots. He needs to be in this situation when he flops a Ten or a couple of hearts. Then he can dish it out to someone playing for half 'a pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like your analysis, but you seem to be overlooking a few things that I think are important. First is the fact that MP1 is a total sucker, whose call should get zero respect. I am not folding a strong hand because a sucker flat-calls a pot sized bet. If anything MP1's call gives me more reason to play this hand.

Second, button has additional outs for high even if he is currently behind for that half of the pot. Given the play of the opposition, it is entirely possible that button's overpair is good for high, and that he is sitting on 3/4 or 4/6 of the pot. Even if button is behind for high, however, he has a reasonable chance of sucking out with a T,3, backdoor flush or even a board pair that counterfeits an opponent's two pair hand. In other words, button could easily be the only one holding the nut low and be freerolling for high. If button ends up getting quartered, against two opponents, it won't hurt that badly. He also gets a nice sidepot with the sucker, which he could easily scoop or 3/4.

In short, there is no way I would fold this flop. And since I am not folding, I would push to get anyone behind me sitting on 84xx, 44xx, 55xx out of the hand to increase my chances of scooping or 3/4ing.

[Wintermute]

[ QUOTE ]
Button's problem is that he has no viable prospects for high. PLO8 is about scooping, and much more frequently, three-quartering pots. He needs to be in this situation when he flops a Ten or a couple of hearts. Then he can dish it out to someone playing for half 'a pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

WTF? Of course the A2TT has a viable high. He wins the high almost 1/3 of the time against the other hand we know of here:

Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 820 enumerated boards containing 5s 4c 8h
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Tc Ah Th 2h 244 244 568 8 703 108 9 0.583
8s 2s 4h 3h 108 568 244 8 108 703 9 0.417

Sure, A2TT could be a dog to A248:

Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 820 enumerated boards containing 5s 4c 8h
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Tc Ah Th 2h 0 203 508 109 0 0 820 0.407
As 8s 2c 4h 0 508 203 109 0 0 820 0.593

But if you're constantly worrying about the monster under the bed, you're not going to win at this game. A2TT here should be getting as much money in the pot right now as possible.

[gergery]

Thanks for the comments everyone.

I was button in this hand. Turn was a 5 and river a blank, so I scooped when MP's 2 pair was counterfeited.

It seemed crazy to fold against these fish with the nut made low plus reasonable high chances in a pot this big.

But i guess the reason i posted the hand was to see what people thought of play if the opponents had been a bit better and the consensus seems to be my play would have been a bit more risky, so that is helpful.

-g

[Wintermute]

Against a player who only plays the nuts, has a VPIP in the teens, never raises PF, you might be a little more hesitant here. Against players in any Party game though, you played this just fine. You're up against a donkey enough of the time to risk being a dog against a good hand every once in a while.