too weak tight? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

mithong

06-20-2005, 03:31 PM

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
3 folds, MP2 calls, Hero raises, 1 fold, SB calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB bets, MP2 calls, Hero folds.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
SB bets, MP2 raises, SB calls.

River: (8.50 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
SB bets, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 10.50 BB

villain was a straightforward player so with his bet and a caller i figured one of them had a king

too weak tight?

Aaron W.

06-20-2005, 03:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
3 folds, MP2 calls, Hero raises, 1 fold, SB calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB bets, MP2 calls, Hero folds.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
SB bets, MP2 raises, SB calls.

River: (8.50 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
SB bets, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 10.50 BB

villain was a straightforward player so with his bet and a caller i figured one of them had a king

too weak tight?

[/ QUOTE ]

This should have been a fairly standard call, Mithong... Even if you *KNOW* one of them has a king, this is still worth a call.

kiddj

06-20-2005, 03:34 PM

Yes. (Just kidding) /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

You have the odds to at least see the turn even without reads.

mithong

06-20-2005, 03:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
3 folds, MP2 calls, Hero raises, 1 fold, SB calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB bets, MP2 calls, Hero folds.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
SB bets, MP2 raises, SB calls.

River: (8.50 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
SB bets, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 10.50 BB

villain was a straightforward player so with his bet and a caller i figured one of them had a king

too weak tight?

[/ QUOTE ]

This should have been a fairly standard call, Mithong... Even if you *KNOW* one of them has a king, this is still worth a call.

[/ QUOTE ]

so call and then check/fold the turn unimproved? or call one more bet?

Fantam

06-20-2005, 03:45 PM

Even if SB did have a K, I think the pot was big enough for you to call on the flop.

The pot had 8 small bets at the time, and the chance of your hitting one of your 5 outs on the turn to make either trip Q's or 2 pair were ~8.5:1.

Apart from that, SB could have been betting something like JT for an OESD. Its unlikely, but it was possible that you still had the best hand.

So I think a call on the flop was justified. When you didnt improve on the turn and SB bet and MP2 raised, a fold would have been sensible.

Aaron W.

06-20-2005, 03:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
3 folds, MP2 calls, Hero raises, 1 fold, SB calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB bets, MP2 calls, Hero folds.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
SB bets, MP2 raises, SB calls.

River: (8.50 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
SB bets, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 10.50 BB

villain was a straightforward player so with his bet and a caller i figured one of them had a king

too weak tight?

[/ QUOTE ]

This should have been a fairly standard call, Mithong... Even if you *KNOW* one of them has a king, this is still worth a call.

[/ QUOTE ]

so call and then check/fold the turn unimproved? or call one more bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

What is the reason for calling the first bet?

chopchoi

06-20-2005, 03:54 PM

Hands like this are the reason I don't like all that pf raising that EM recommends. When situations like this arise, I like to be able to make a clean break from the hand, but once you've raised pf, your odds are so good that you're stuck calling with a hand that you don't know is any good.

The pot is laying you 9:1 (actually 8:1 after you subtract the rake). You have 5 outs to 2 pair or better, and a backdoor straight draw. However, there is a chance that you will make 2 pair and still lose, so let's say this chance cancells out the backdoor draw, and you have 5 outs.

The odds against your improving on the turn are 8.4:1. The pot is laying you 8:1. With implied odds, you should call, but folding was not a huge mistake.

gopnik

06-20-2005, 04:08 PM

yes, too weak tight. You even had outs to draw to your backdoor and 2 pairs/trips. A caller could have any draw or A high. SB could have a Q with a worse kicker.

Weatherhead03

06-20-2005, 04:14 PM

Because if you spike either a Q or J then you will be ahead and win 15-20 SB for one.

Aaron W.

06-20-2005, 04:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hands like this are the reason I don't like all that pf raising that EM recommends. When situations like this arise, I like to be able to make a clean break from the hand, but once you've raised pf, your odds are so good that you're stuck calling with a hand that you don't know is any good.

[/ QUOTE ]

"I don't like raising preflop with a strong hand because I don't like chasing with proper pot odds." /images/graemlins/frown.gif

homebrewer

06-20-2005, 04:40 PM

chopchoi,
nice analysis. no disrespect, but your argument by itself seems to be making a case, eloquent as it may be, for "weak-tight" play. I think combined with the OP's read, a fold is not out of the question. But, this seems to be one of the close decisions where aggressive play has its long-term rewards, no?

chopchoi

06-20-2005, 05:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hands like this are the reason I don't like all that pf raising that EM recommends. When situations like this arise, I like to be able to make a clean break from the hand, but once you've raised pf, your odds are so good that you're stuck calling with a hand that you don't know is any good.

[/ QUOTE ]

"I don't like raising preflop with a strong hand because I don't like chasing with proper pot odds." /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

QJs is not that strong of a hand, and you're likely to get into a lot of very marginal situations, where calling and folding are very similar in value.

And let's be honest, when you're at the table, you don't have time to do a thotough odds calculation (especially if you play more than 1 table) so you're likely just to say "Big Pot. Have outs. Call." Then you get raised, and you wish you hadn't called the first bet. Or you pick up a gutshot on the turn, so you decide to see the river. One opponent folds the river and it's one bet to you. You're getting 10:1 to call, and who knows, maybe he's betting a busted draw or a weaker queen, and your hand is good. You call and he shows KJ, so you didn't even have the outs you thought you did.

You just spent three and a half big bets on a pot that would only have cost you half a bet had you called the flop.

aK13

06-20-2005, 06:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]

QJs is not that strong of a hand

And let's be honest, when you're at the table, you don't have time to do a thotough odds calculation (especially if you play more than 1 table) so you're likely just to say "Big Pot. Have outs. Call."

[/ QUOTE ]

I thoroughly disagree with everything here. QJs in this position is a very good hand.

I play 4 tables normally, and I have done up to 7 tables, and I can do the math. I'm sure everybody who plays 8 or even 12 tables does it too. If you aren't, you're no better than all the fish at party. It should be automatic, just like raising AKs preflop in any situation.

Also, if you think that you're dominated every time you play a mid pair hand, you're letting money fly out the window.

Aaron W.

06-20-2005, 08:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hands like this are the reason I don't like all that pf raising that EM recommends. When situations like this arise, I like to be able to make a clean break from the hand, but once you've raised pf, your odds are so good that you're stuck calling with a hand that you don't know is any good.

[/ QUOTE ]

"I don't like raising preflop with a strong hand because I don't like chasing with proper pot odds." /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

QJs is not that strong of a hand, and you're likely to get into a lot of very marginal situations, where calling and folding are very similar in value.

And let's be honest, when you're at the table, you don't have time to do a thotough odds calculation (especially if you play more than 1 table) so you're likely just to say "Big Pot. Have outs. Call." Then you get raised, and you wish you hadn't called the first bet. Or you pick up a gutshot on the turn, so you decide to see the river. One opponent folds the river and it's one bet to you. You're getting 10:1 to call, and who knows, maybe he's betting a busted draw or a weaker queen, and your hand is good. You call and he shows KJ, so you didn't even have the outs you thought you did.

You just spent three and a half big bets on a pot that would only have cost you half a bet had you called the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are so many things wrong with what you say here. It's not funny.

"QJs is not that strong of a hand"

QJs is a strong hand. It's no monster, but you flop good hands and good draws with it. Most of the time when you flop a pair, it will be top pair, subject to only 8 overcards. You often have extra outs (gutshot, BDFD) to make this hand even more profitable postflop. Raising it preflop is standard as you will often drive out hands which are slightly better, such as Kx and Ax (not always, but often).

"you're likely to get into a lot of very marginal situations, where calling and folding are very similar in value."

Marginal does not mean unprofitable. If you passed on every marginal situation, you would be losing out on at least 1 BB/100 from your winrate.

"And let's be honest, when you're at the table, you don't have time to do a thotough odds calculation (especially if you play more than 1 table) so you're likely just to say "Big Pot. Have outs. Call.""

I'll be honest, you shouldn't be doing odds calcualtions because you should have them memorized. It takes less than a second for you to think "5 outs need 8:1". The online sites do you a favor by giving you the pot size so you don't even need to be counting bets.

"Then you get raised, and you wish you hadn't called the first bet. Or you pick up a gutshot on the turn, so you decide to see the river. One opponent folds the river and it's one bet to you. You're getting 10:1 to call, and who knows, maybe he's betting a busted draw or a weaker queen, and your hand is good. You call and he shows KJ, so you didn't even have the outs you thought you did."

What if you get raised? You're closing the action! Pay attention to your position.

And get over MUBS. You can't be playing these hands in fear of something bad happening. Maybe your outs are tainted. It happens sometimes. But most of the time, they are not, and you hit your outs and win. This gets more true as the field gets smaller (this is a 3-handed pot, not a 7-handed pot).

Nobody said you have to call the river when you miss your outs. Calling down with second pair when someone bets into you (don't forget you raised preflop!) on the flop, turn, and river with a KQ on the board is probably not bluffing. A river fold in this spot should be standard.

"You just spent three and a half big bets on a pot that would only have cost you half a bet had you called the flop."

This is results-oriented thinking. You're not saving money by playing poorly. You're losing it. What if the flop came Q85 and villain bets into you? You raise, he calls. Turn goes check-check-bet-call-fold, river is check-bet-call. He turns over QTo and you take take down a 10 BB pot! Sometimes the flop is T74 and you take it down with a flop bet. Sometimes the flop is AJT and there's a raise in front of you and you fold. You can't say that you "cost" yourself 3.5 bets because it didn't work out for you this time.

Felipe

06-20-2005, 08:46 PM

I like your post mithong. And I like seeing players unafraid to ask questions, get burned, and recieve are LARGE lesson in the end! good for you.

Call that on the flop
1) you close the action
2) you don't know what ANY body has yet.
3) you raised preflop, you might have the best hand
4) you may (not likely) geta free card on the turn to see the river.
5) you have PERFECT implied odds to chase.

Chasing isn't "bad" poker *IF you have the correct odds. That is to say, your chase can be profitable (in this case it is) or not. A profitable draw is one where the implied odds are greater than your chance of hitting the draw you are after.

5 outs = 2 queens and 3 jacks in the deck
47 = cards left in the deck

about 1/9 (9X5 = 45)
8:1 odds of hitting your hand on the turn.

you are getting exactly 9:1 on your bet (or as the dude above subrated for rake, so 8:1) That means, if you hit your other queen, or hit a jack (a jack on this board might not be too exciting because it makes 3 to a straight on the board (AT makes a straight; and Any ten has 8 outs to beat you)) you can expect to get two more big bets from at least one player (the SB) and maybe one or two from MP2. that means you can add 2 more big bets (or 4 more small bets) into that flop pot. You will get 12:1 on your draw of 8:1, that means it profitable.

Hope that helps!
felipe

Malachii

06-20-2005, 08:55 PM

Right idea. Basically, you have a five out draw, which needs 8.2-1, and you're getting 9-1, so you should at least call.
This is actually good spot to raise for a free card IMO.

Malachii

06-20-2005, 08:58 PM

Calling's okay, but why not raise for a free card?

Aaron W.

06-20-2005, 09:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Calling's okay, but why not raise for a free card?

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising for nothing other than a free card is a bad play. Read this classic (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=321233&page=&view=&sb=5&o =&fpart=all&vc=1) by Clarkmeister (as well as the conversation that follows).

Edit: Especially see Ed's comment.

Malachii

06-20-2005, 09:12 PM

Yeah, I've read it. Thanks for the link. All I can say is that in my experience (mostly live game play, which I admit plays differently than online), raising for the free card is generally pretty effective. I have no doubt that playing for the stakes Clarkmeister plays at, it's a much less effective play.

EDIT: And I think it would be correct to take the free card here if you Hero doesn't improve.