counting outs and thin edges

[_bustedflush_]

I have been working on counting outs more carefully, especially on the turn. I'm not sure where to go with this one.

Only on 2nd orbit, but so far, UTG+1 is like 80/30/1. I read more into him not raising preflop than I do him betting the turn. He could have stumbled onto two clubs, but it is not a great holding (not AT)

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero completes, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, CO calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP1 calls, CO calls, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls.
<font color="purple"> It's weak, but the pot's big enough that I'll call one back to me; fold if it's two back to me </font>

Turn: (9 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP1 folds, CO folds, Hero ...
<font color="purple"> So, what do I have here? First, I might be drawing dead to a flush. If there's no flush yet, the 8's are good, A /images/graemlins/club.gif is worthless, 1 or 2 for the other A's. If I hit on the river, I can lead and get called for an additonal BB or two. So immediate odds are 10:1, implied odds are 11 or 12:1 </font>

So, what do I do with this turn? Comments on the flop welcome also.

[grjr]

I call the flop for one bet but would feel better about it if BB wasn't in check/raise position right behind me.

I definately fold the turn though. I hate to be drawing dead and with 5 others calling the flop there's a pretty good chance of that.

If an Ace or 8 hit the river and you would have won well that still doesn't mean it was the right play--especially since you're not closing the action on the turn.