When to raise in SB?

[felson]

In one of his audio lectures in the "Online Poker News," Mike Caro advocates limping in the SB in multiway pots (and some short-handed pots), even with kings and sometimes aces. Before I heard the lecture, I was inclined to raise with big pairs and big suited cards. Now I'm not sure. What do all of you think?

[sucka]

There's a section in HEPFAP that discusses this - although, I don't have the book at work with me so I can't quote anything. Basically, it talks about how raising in these types of situations (family pots with big hands) will tie the table to the pot and you make it correct for the player who flops bottom pair with an overcard to proceed as well as anyone holding a hand with 5 or more outs. Sure, AA or KK is the best hand you can have no matter how many people are in the pot - but your chances of winning increase with the more people that you can drop on the flop or turn with hands that can draw out on you. In general, you don't mind a couple folks like that hanging around to pay you off - but when you make the pot so huge that no one is going to fold your chances of winning in a pot like that with big cards drops dramatically.

This probably also applies to a tighter game where you happen to spike a big hand on a family pot. You disguise your hand by smooth calling instead of raising from the blinds which normally indicates a pretty strong hand. Also, with your ability to act first from the SB on future rounds you can make up some of the ground by check-raising the flop or turn if your big hand looks good.

[Clarkmeister]

I think I respect Caro's work on Tells a great deal.

I think Caro has published some great general poker concepts.

I also think that Caro's preflop advice for Holdem is horrifically bad. And I'm not just talking about "not raising from the SB with AA"

[DMR]

If six players limp to me and I'm in the sb with AA, if I raise now I can get 4 extra big bets in the pot right now. At 1bb per hour that 4 hours work right there! Sure my chance of winning the pot have gone down slightly but it was a multi-way pot anyway and people generally aren't folding. 1 players, 2 players, 8 players AA is still the favourite to win so why not raise?

[Robk]

Hi Felson, with that many limpers I would raise any medium or higher pair from the SB, BB,
button or cutoff. I think it's a terrible error to not raise AA-KK here. With many players in
the pot you're chances of winning go down but this is more than compensated for by the bigger
reward when your hand holds up. Caro participated in a thread here about AA, you may want
to try to find it to see what he had to say, or just ask him on UPF.

[eMarkM]

Always raise AA-KK from the blinds. But I'll raise a lot of others, too, depending on how many there are in the pot. AK, big suited cards, and others. I do this because many will automatically put you on a big pocket pair when you do this so you may be able to buy the pot against a small field.

But against a large, multiway pot, I also do this because I'm not afraid of just giving up on a hand if the flop doesn't hit me. I think some people have trouble being the preflop raiser from their blinds because they think it then obligates them to "show strength" and bet out on the flop no matter what comes out. But why? I'll raise AKo from the SB with loose limpers because I think I have the best hand and want more money in the pot. If the flop misses me completely, I'll check and often fold to significant action and it only cost me 1 extra bet. If I hit, there's that much more money in the pot.

[sucka]

exactly.

I look at it this way. If I'm holding a big pocket pair I'll raise from the blinds nearly 95% of the time.

With big suited connectors I'll raise from the blinds to present the image that I have a big pair. If you have half the table or more in the pot with you a raise here makes a nice fat pot for the cost of one small bet. Let's say you are playing $3/6. You 'invest' $3 (in a 6 way pot) for a $15 return, if the flop hits you that is. If it doesn't then oh well - that's poker. But here is one of those golden opportunites to maximize.

Another nice thing about raising in a big pot like this from the blinds is that you make a huge a pot and tie people who flop anything or have any type of a draw to the pot.

[STOSH1]

I can remember about a year ago I didn't raise AA in the BB. I called 3 bets cold and then the cap when it came back around, (3 players). /forums/images/icons/wink.gif A,10,9 on the flop and I bet out and raised at every opportunity after that.

[tewall]

If I remember right, their example involved QQ. The idea is like you said. You want to profit by your opponent's mistakes. You want them to chase you later on when they don't have odds to do so. If the pot is big at the beginning, then they are correct, or making only a small error, to chase.

With a hand as good as AA however, you may get more from the strength of the hand and getting more bets in than you do from profiting from the opponent's later mistake of chasing. I don't think they recommend not raising with AA (nice double negative here).

I think their recommendation would go like this:
1) Very strong hands, raise
2) Quite strong, but not as good as 1) call
3) Pretty strong, but not as good as 2), raise
4) Strong enough to play, but not as good as 3), call

I'm not sure exactly where the cutoff points lie, but they might recommend raising with AA, calling with QQ, raising with 99, and calling with 77 for example.