Big Stack Bullying. Where did I go wrong???

[Myst]

I went from 50% of the chips in play, to busting in 4th.. It just seems that this big stack bullying doesnt work at the $55s and below. Theres a certain saturation point that exists where people just wont take it anymore. AJ and KQ type hands still call. Be more selective with it? You decide.

#Game No : 2235118356
***** Hand History for Game 2235118356 *****
NL Hold'em $50 Buy-in + $5 Entry Fee Trny:13252565 Level:8 Blinds(200/400) - Monday, June 20, 05:42:04 EDT 2005
Table Table 10894 (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 1: TangRocks ( $2780 )
Seat 2: guptaman25 ( $2900 )
Seat 4: giuann ( $2630 )
Seat 10: Mystakened ( $1690 )
Trny:13252565 Level:8
Blinds(200/400)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Mystakened [ Ac 3c ]
guptaman25 folds.
giuann folds.
Mystakened is all-In [1490]
TangRocks calls [1290].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 5s, 9c, 8h ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 9h ]
** Dealing River ** [ Ad ]
Mystakened shows [ Ac, 3c ] two pairs, aces and nines.
TangRocks shows [ 7s, 7c ] two pairs, nines and sevens.
Mystakened wins 3380 chips from the main pot with two pairs, aces and nines.
sorry
XXXX
Game #2235118848 starts.

#Game No : 2235118848
***** Hand History for Game 2235118848 *****
NL Hold'em $50 Buy-in + $5 Entry Fee Trny:13252565 Level:8 Blinds(200/400) - Monday, June 20, 05:42:24 EDT 2005
Table Table 10894 (Real Money)
Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 1: TangRocks ( $1090 )
Seat 2: guptaman25 ( $2900 )
Seat 4: giuann ( $2630 )
Seat 10: Mystakened ( $3380 )
Trny:13252565 Level:8
Blinds(200/400)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Mystakened [ Qd 3d ]
TangRocks: damn
giuann folds.
>You have options at Table 16927 Table!.
Mystakened: Had to :/
Mystakened: stupid blinds too high
Mystakened folds.
TangRocks folds.
guptaman25 does not show cards.
guptaman25 wins 600 chips
still kinda blows for me
Game #2235119362 starts.

#Game No : 2235119362
***** Hand History for Game 2235119362 *****
NL Hold'em $50 Buy-in + $5 Entry Fee Trny:13252565 Level:8 Blinds(200/400) - Monday, June 20, 05:42:46 EDT 2005
Table Table 10894 (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 1: TangRocks ( $890 )
Seat 2: guptaman25 ( $3100 )
Seat 4: giuann ( $2630 )
Seat 10: Mystakened ( $3380 )
Trny:13252565 Level:8
Blinds(200/400)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Mystakened [ 9c Ks ]
Mystakened is all-In [3380]
TangRocks folds.
guptaman25 folds.
giuann folds.
Mystakened does not show cards.
Mystakened wins 3980 chips
>You have options at Table 16927 Table!.
Game #2235119807 starts.

#Game No : 2235119807
***** Hand History for Game 2235119807 *****
NL Hold'em $50 Buy-in + $5 Entry Fee Trny:13252565 Level:8 Blinds(200/400) - Monday, June 20, 05:43:06 EDT 2005
Table Table 10894 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 1: TangRocks ( $890 )
Seat 2: guptaman25 ( $2900 )
Seat 4: giuann ( $2230 )
Seat 10: Mystakened ( $3980 )
Trny:13252565 Level:8
Blinds(200/400)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Mystakened [ Jh Ad ]
TangRocks folds.
>You have options at Table 11515 Table!.
guptaman25 folds.
giuann folds.
Mystakened does not show cards.
Mystakened wins 600 chips
Game #2235120142 starts.

#Game No : 2235120142
***** Hand History for Game 2235120142 *****
NL Hold'em $50 Buy-in + $5 Entry Fee Trny:13252565 Level:8 Blinds(200/400) - Monday, June 20, 05:43:20 EDT 2005
Table Table 10894 (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 1: TangRocks ( $890 )
Seat 2: guptaman25 ( $2900 )
Seat 4: giuann ( $2030 )
Seat 10: Mystakened ( $4180 )
Trny:13252565 Level:8
Blinds(200/400)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Mystakened [ 8c 5h ]
guptaman25 folds.
giuann folds.
Mystakened folds.
TangRocks does not show cards.
TangRocks wins 600 chips
Game #2235120438 starts.

#Game No : 2235120438
***** Hand History for Game 2235120438 *****
NL Hold'em $50 Buy-in + $5 Entry Fee Trny:13252565 Level:8 Blinds(200/400) - Monday, June 20, 05:43:33 EDT 2005
Table Table 10894 (Real Money)
Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 1: TangRocks ( $1090 )
Seat 2: guptaman25 ( $2900 )
Seat 4: giuann ( $2030 )
Seat 10: Mystakened ( $3980 )
Trny:13252565 Level:8
Blinds(200/400)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Mystakened [ Tc 8h ]
>You have options at Table 16927 Table!.
giuann folds.
Mystakened is all-In [3980]
TangRocks folds.
guptaman25 folds.
Mystakened does not show cards.
Mystakened wins 4580 chips
Game #2235120908 starts.

#Game No : 2235120908
***** Hand History for Game 2235120908 *****
NL Hold'em $50 Buy-in + $5 Entry Fee Trny:13252565 Level:8 Blinds(200/400) - Monday, June 20, 05:43:52 EDT 2005
Table Table 10894 (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 1: TangRocks ( $890 )
Seat 2: guptaman25 ( $2500 )
Seat 4: giuann ( $2030 )
Seat 10: Mystakened ( $4580 )
Trny:13252565 Level:8
Blinds(200/400)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Mystakened [ Jh 5d ]
Mystakened is all-In [4580]
>You have options at Table 16927 Table!.
TangRocks folds.
guptaman25 folds.
giuann folds.
Mystakened does not show cards.
Mystakened wins 5180 chips
Game #2235121345 starts.

#Game No : 2235121345
***** Hand History for Game 2235121345 *****
NL Hold'em $50 Buy-in + $5 Entry Fee Trny:13252565 Level:8 Blinds(200/400) - Monday, June 20, 05:44:10 EDT 2005
Table Table 10894 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 1: TangRocks ( $890 )
Seat 2: guptaman25 ( $2300 )
Seat 4: giuann ( $1630 )
Seat 10: Mystakened ( $5180 )
Trny:13252565 Level:8
Blinds(200/400)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Mystakened [ 8h 6c ]
TangRocks is all-In [890]
guptaman25 folds.
>You have options at Table 11240 Table!.
>You have options at Table 11515 Table!.
>You have options at Table 16927 Table!.
giuann folds.
Mystakened folds.
TangRocks does not show cards.
TangRocks wins 1490 chips
hhhmmmm
Game #2235121845 starts.

#Game No : 2235121845
***** Hand History for Game 2235121845 *****
NL Hold'em $50 Buy-in + $5 Entry Fee Trny:13252565 Level:9 Blinds(250/500) - Monday, June 20, 05:44:33 EDT 2005
Table Table 10894 (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 1: TangRocks ( $1490 )
Seat 2: guptaman25 ( $2300 )
Seat 4: giuann ( $1430 )
Seat 10: Mystakened ( $4780 )
Trny:13252565 Level:9
Blinds(250/500)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Mystakened [ Ts 6h ]
guptaman25 is all-In [2300]
giuann folds.
Mystakened folds.
TangRocks folds.
guptaman25 does not show cards.
guptaman25 wins 3050 chips
Game #2235122199 starts.

#Game No : 2235122199
***** Hand History for Game 2235122199 *****
NL Hold'em $50 Buy-in + $5 Entry Fee Trny:13252565 Level:9 Blinds(250/500) - Monday, June 20, 05:44:48 EDT 2005
Table Table 10894 (Real Money)
Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 1: TangRocks ( $990 )
Seat 2: guptaman25 ( $3050 )
Seat 4: giuann ( $1430 )
Seat 10: Mystakened ( $4530 )
Trny:13252565 Level:9
Blinds(250/500)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Mystakened [ Qh 9c ]
giuann folds.
>You have options at Table 11515 Table!.
Mystakened is all-In [4530]
>You have options at Table 16927 Table!.
TangRocks folds.
>You have options at Table 11240 Table!.
guptaman25 is all-In [2550]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 8s, Kd, 6c ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 6s ]
** Dealing River ** [ Ac ]
guptaman25 shows [ Qs, Kc ] two pairs, kings and sixes.
Mystakened shows [ Qh, 9c ] a pair of sixes.
Mystakened wins 1480 chips from side pot #1 with a pair of sixes.
guptaman25 wins 6350 chips from the main pot with two pairs, kings and sixes.
Game #2235122655 starts.

#Game No : 2235122655
***** Hand History for Game 2235122655 *****
NL Hold'em $50 Buy-in + $5 Entry Fee Trny:13252565 Level:9 Blinds(250/500) - Monday, June 20, 05:45:08 EDT 2005
Table Table 10894 (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 1: TangRocks ( $740 )
Seat 2: guptaman25 ( $6350 )
Seat 4: giuann ( $1430 )
Seat 10: Mystakened ( $1480 )
Trny:13252565 Level:9
Blinds(250/500)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Mystakened [ 4h 8s ]
Mystakened folds.
TangRocks folds.
guptaman25 folds.
giuann does not show cards.
giuann wins 750 chips
haha owned mystakend, owned
Game #2235122986 starts.

#Game No : 2235122986
***** Hand History for Game 2235122986 *****
NL Hold'em $50 Buy-in + $5 Entry Fee Trny:13252565 Level:9 Blinds(250/500) - Monday, June 20, 05:45:22 EDT 2005
Table Table 10894 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 1: TangRocks ( $740 )
Seat 2: guptaman25 ( $6100 )
Seat 4: giuann ( $1680 )
Seat 10: Mystakened ( $1480 )
Trny:13252565 Level:9
Blinds(250/500)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Mystakened [ 2d 3h ]
TangRocks folds.
guptaman25 is all-In [6100]
giuann folds.
Mystakened: your lucky I didnt have an ace
>You have options at Table 11240 Table!.
Mystakened folds.
guptaman25: now to play your game
guptaman25 does not show cards.
guptaman25 wins 6850 chips
>You have options at Table 16927 Table!.
you were pushing with CRAP
Game #2235123429 starts.

#Game No : 2235123429
***** Hand History for Game 2235123429 *****
NL Hold'em $50 Buy-in + $5 Entry Fee Trny:13252565 Level:9 Blinds(250/500) - Monday, June 20, 05:45:40 EDT 2005
Table Table 10894 (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 1: TangRocks ( $740 )
Seat 2: guptaman25 ( $6850 )
Seat 4: giuann ( $1430 )
Seat 10: Mystakened ( $980 )
Trny:13252565 Level:9
Blinds(250/500)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Mystakened [ 9s 3d ]
guptaman25 folds.
Mystakened: Q9 is crap?
giuann folds.
guptaman25: yes...
Mystakened is all-In [730]
guptaman25: are you joking?
TangRocks is all-In [240]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 6s, 5c, 6d ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 5h ]
** Dealing River ** [ 8s ]
Mystakened shows [ 9s, 3d ] two pairs, sixes and fives.
TangRocks shows [ 2d, Kc ] two pairs, sixes and fives.
Mystakened wins 240 chips from side pot #1 with two pairs, sixes and fives.
TangRocks wins 1480 chips from the main pot with two pairs, sixes and fives with king kicker.
of course q9 is crap...
Game #2235123938 starts.

#Game No : 2235123938
***** Hand History for Game 2235123938 *****
NL Hold'em $50 Buy-in + $5 Entry Fee Trny:13252565 Level:9 Blinds(250/500) - Monday, June 20, 05:46:02 EDT 2005
Table Table 10894 (Real Money)
Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 1: TangRocks ( $1480 )
Seat 2: guptaman25 ( $6850 )
Seat 4: giuann ( $1430 )
Seat 10: Mystakened ( $240 )
Trny:13252565 Level:9
Blinds(250/500)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Mystakened [ Ks Js ]
giuann folds.
guptaman25: i really hope yorue joking
Mystakened is all-In [240]
TangRocks calls [250].
guptaman25 checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 3s, 7s, Ts ]
TangRocks checks.
guptaman25 checks.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 7c ]
TangRocks checks.
guptaman25 checks.
** Dealing River ** [ Jd ]
>You have options at Table 16927 Table!.
TangRocks checks.
guptaman25 checks.
TangRocks shows [ Qh, Jh ] two pairs, jacks and sevens.
>You have options at Table 11515 Table!.
guptaman25 doesn't show [ 6h, 8d ] a pair of sevens.
Mystakened shows [ Ks, Js ] a flush, king high.
TangRocks wins 520 chips from side pot #1 with two pairs, jacks and sevens.
Mystakened wins 720 chips from the main pot with a flush, king high.
>You have options at Table 11240 Table!.
Game #2235124494 starts.

#Game No : 2235124494
***** Hand History for Game 2235124494 *****
NL Hold'em $50 Buy-in + $5 Entry Fee Trny:13252565 Level:9 Blinds(250/500) - Monday, June 20, 05:46:25 EDT 2005
Table Table 10894 (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 1: TangRocks ( $1500 )
Seat 2: guptaman25 ( $6350 )
Seat 4: giuann ( $1430 )
Seat 10: Mystakened ( $720 )
Trny:13252565 Level:9
Blinds(250/500)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Mystakened [ 4s 4d ]
Mystakened is all-In [720]
TangRocks is all-In [1500]
guptaman25 folds.
giuann folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 9c, 7h, 8s ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Qh ]
** Dealing River ** [ Kd ]
Mystakened shows [ 4s, 4d ] a pair of fours.
TangRocks shows [ Jc, Js ] a pair of jacks.
TangRocks wins 780 chips from side pot #1 with a pair of jacks.
TangRocks wins 2190 chips from the main pot with a pair of jacks.
Mystakened finished in fourth place.
gg
fitting you would lose
>You have options at Table 16927 Table!.
Mystakened has left the table.
Game #2235124893 starts.

[Freudian]

He even said what went wrong for you. He took notice of your pushing range ("you were pushing with CRAP") and adjusted his calling range.

Pushing as the big stack has diminishing returns. Some opponents will let you do it until they have less than 1BB. Some will fight back.

With blinds this size I don't think you played it poorly though. But BB has a pretty big stack and if he plays back at you, you will be in trouble.

I'm not sure I like this hand below. a) You announce that you want to keep the bubble alive with such a huge bang that only the truly clueless will fail to notice. Notice the "hmmmm" at the bottom. I have a good guess who said it. b) With blinds this big the stealing potion of the game is almost over. Move on to ITM when you have the chance. I would call this hand 100% of the time. If I lose I have some more bubble. If not I have a dominating stack when ITM.

#Game No : 2235121345
***** Hand History for Game 2235121345 *****
NL Hold'em $50 Buy-in + $5 Entry Fee Trny:13252565 Level:8 Blinds(200/400) - Monday, June 20, 05:44:10 EDT 2005
Table Table 10894 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 1: TangRocks ( $890 )
Seat 2: guptaman25 ( $2300 )
Seat 4: giuann ( $1630 )
Seat 10: Mystakened ( $5180 )
Trny:13252565 Level:8
Blinds(200/400)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Mystakened [ 8h 6c ]
TangRocks is all-In [890]
guptaman25 folds.
>You have options at Table 11240 Table!.
>You have options at Table 11515 Table!.
>You have options at Table 16927 Table!.
giuann folds.
Mystakened folds.
TangRocks does not show cards.
TangRocks wins 1490 chips
hhhmmmm

[kamrann]

[ QUOTE ]
I went from 50% of the chips in play, to busting in 4th.. It just seems that this big stack bullying doesnt work at the $55s and below.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think this is the case at all really. True, some of the donks don't realise just how -$EV making certain calls on the bubble is, and will do it with mediocre hands. But on the other hand, once you reach the $109s and $215s most players (I am guessing) will be aware enough to see the situations where you are clearly pushing any two, and loosen up their calling requirements a little. I think the strategy can be very effective at all levels, if used correctly at the right times. Twice recently in the $55s I've gone from ~T4000 to over T8000 just from allin stealing, without winning a single showdown. It definitely does work in the right scenario.

As for your particular case. First off, the guy's call with KQ is just plain abysmal. Even if he knows you're pushing any two, I can't begin to imagine how much $EV he's transferring to the two short stacks by making this call.

However, I'm actually surprised your tactic didn't go wrong earlier. The fact that the short stack is on your immediate left means that this wasn't really an ideal bullying situation. He was so much shorter than the others that he was liable to call allin at any time, since he wasn't in a position to fold into the money. So not only were your chances of picking up the blinds reduced, but also if he had of called sometime, one of the bigger stacks behind may have been able to call too with loosened requirements, knowing that all they had to do was beat either you or the short stack in order to make the money. Having said all that, sometimes bullying just backfires even when you have a great situation and do nothing wrong, and a capitulation from chip leader to bubble will happen every now and then. But the increased first places from when it succeeds should more than make up for these rare occurrences if you use the strategy effectively.

Finally, I agree with Freudian that it wasn't worth keeping the bubble alive here, mostly due to it not being all that great a bullying situation for the reasons above. Better off having 60% of the chips ITM.

[Patriarch]

Really no need to get involved in a discussion or defend your play either.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
He even said what went wrong for you. He took notice of your pushing range ("you were pushing with CRAP") and adjusted his calling range.

Pushing as the big stack has diminishing returns. Some opponents will let you do it until they have less than 1BB. Some will fight back.

With blinds this size I don't think you played it poorly though. But BB has a pretty big stack and if he plays back at you, you will be in trouble.

I'm not sure I like this hand below. a) You announce that you want to keep the bubble alive with such a huge bang that only the truly clueless will fail to notice. Notice the "hmmmm" at the bottom. I have a good guess who said it. b) With blinds this big the stealing potion of the game is almost over. Move on to ITM when you have the chance. I would call this hand 100% of the time. If I lose I have some more bubble. If not I have a dominating stack when ITM.

#Game No : 2235121345
***** Hand History for Game 2235121345 *****
NL Hold'em $50 Buy-in + $5 Entry Fee Trny:13252565 Level:8 Blinds(200/400) - Monday, June 20, 05:44:10 EDT 2005
Table Table 10894 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 1: TangRocks ( $890 )
Seat 2: guptaman25 ( $2300 )
Seat 4: giuann ( $1630 )
Seat 10: Mystakened ( $5180 )
Trny:13252565 Level:8
Blinds(200/400)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Mystakened [ 8h 6c ]
TangRocks is all-In [890]
guptaman25 folds.
>You have options at Table 11240 Table!.
>You have options at Table 11515 Table!.
>You have options at Table 16927 Table!.
giuann folds.
Mystakened folds.
TangRocks does not show cards.
TangRocks wins 1490 chips
hhhmmmm

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree 100% with Freudian. I would have made the call here every time. IMO, he is totally correct about the idea of diminishing returns when stealing on the bubble. Also, on the key Q9 hand, villain had enough to seriously hurt you. After constant blind stealing, I think that many opponents would have called you with KQ.

At a certain point, I think that the "keep the bubble alive" thing is way overrated. Take the pot odds and make the call here.

[durron597]

If you recall that long thread recently between ZeeJustin and Jason Strasser, ZeeJustin explains why keeping the bubble alive is foolish when you already have more than half the chips in play. Definitely call with that 86o.

Edit: also guptaman made a pretty tough call given that he's virtually guaranteed to cash if he folds and gets nothing if he calls and loses. But he might not have thought that far ahead.

[swarm]

The Blinds are WAYYYYYYY to big to be keeping the bubble alive.

You very well may have 50% of the chips but you barely have more than 10BB... You can't bully people anymore when the blinds are this big.

When the blinds get to this size you need to take your foot off the pedal and let the others battle it out unless you pick up a real hand.

[Jonathan]

[ QUOTE ]
I went from 50% of the chips in play, to busting in 4th..

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean....I'm not the only one who knows this trick? /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Suerte,
Jonathan

[Ixnert]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I went from 50% of the chips in play, to busting in 4th..

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean....I'm not the only one who knows this trick? /images/graemlins/crazy.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

Um, no. /images/graemlins/grin.gif My patent hasn't yet been approved, though, so you're safe for now...