TT hand

[MarkD]

UTG pocket tens typical 1-2 Paradise game.

I call thinking that it's unlikely for me to get heads up with a raise and hoping for a multi-way pot as a result.
MP calls, both blinds call (not the result I wanted, wanted more people).

Flop: 9s 5s 4c
I bet everyone calls.

Turn: 8h
Check and I bet again. SB calls.

River: 2s
Check to me and I think for a moment and decide to value bet thinking that very few players would check raise on the river if they made the flush.

I bet, he folds.

Typical hand? Thoughts?

[JoeyT]

yep.. typical. Well played postflop. The only real quesiton is the preflop decision of raising or folding. I remember posting a TT UTG PP 1/2 hand a while back, and got slammed for only limping with it, so be prepared. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

Since then, I will usually open raise with it, as a lot of Paradise 1/2 games can be tight enough to get to 1 or 2 opponents with a raise. TT plays well against one or two opponents, or more than 4 (where profits come from usually flopping a set, or keeping your overpair in tact).

Just my thoughts

[MarkD]

Yah, this game was slightly looser than the typical PP game I suppose. Raises were getting calls often by two opponents or more.

Usually I would raise this hand in this spot. I can't imagine ever folding.

[Yerma]

There is probably a mathematically well-defined set of hands with which you should raise utg in a ten-handed game where the only posters are the blinds. It's too bad that we don't know what that range is precisely for hold'em. These things are well known for 5-card draw. By 'mathematically well-defined' I mean that it's not subject to opponent tendencies and depends only on the chance that there is a better hand out behind you and the size of the antes.

But wouldn't you suspect that TT would be in such a range?

[MD_]

No such range for hold'em, it's too situational. Sorry.

-MD

[Yerma]

You are wrong. There is an optimal way to play the game and there are sub-optimal ways to play (which take advantage of opponent tendencies).

I say you are giving up too much not raising TT utg even taking into account opponent tendencies. Unfortunately, you'll neither prove me right nor wrong--it's too hard a question.

[MarkD]

Raising / calling / folding TT UTG is something I've read conflicting reports about. Prior to this hand I think I've raised TT UTG close to 100% of the time. But I was rethinking what S&M wrote about JJ and I thought TT plays similar.

If I had raised UTG I think I would have probably had 3 opponents still, and I assumed, based on previous raised hands that a raise would get me 2-4 callers and a call would get me 2-6 callers so I decided to call.

I sure wish someone would do the analysis you talk about, although I imagine it is very difficult. Prolly have to run a large number of simulations to judge the EV difference between calling and raising.

If I had the hand to play again I'd prolly raise it, but I've found myself investing too much money post flop when a single overcard to the tens hits the flop or turn. Usually I continue to bet and an opponent simply calls. I hate betting the flop and getting down to a lone opponent and then folding T's or J's if my lone opponent never shows strength.