KQo: 3-bet by TAG and monotone flop

[shadow29]

MP2 is one of those good TAGs: 22/10/2.6. Not the boring 18/7 guys. No clue about the donkbetter. Seems a little loose, but not a 75 vpip guy. He's playing at 38, but just a few hands. He hasn't raised pf yet and I haven't seen him showdown, so no clue on his postflop play.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 3-bets</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (14.50 SB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>

What's your plan?

[KDawgCometh]

I'm leaning towards a raise here, he very could well be betting into you with just an A /images/graemlins/spade.gif. I'd also want to shut out the tag, too, if I can

[Harv72b]

Raise, fold if the TAG 3-bets. Call down if the TAG folds &amp; UTG+1 3-bets, providing the 4th spade doesn't show.

[KDawgCometh]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise, fold if the TAG 3-bets. Call down if the TAG folds &amp; UTG+1 3-bets, providing the 4th spade doesn't show.

[/ QUOTE ]


what do we do if the tag coldcalls, utg+1 just calls. What is the line to take if a spade comes(I'm assuming a clarkmeister, but there could be another line I haven't thought of)

[Harv72b]

Clarkmeister deals with being OOP on the river vs. 1 opponent. Vs. 2 opponents, or facing a bet on a 4-suited board when in position, I fold without the flush. Especially if the TAG coldcalls the flop behind me.

Actually, if the TAG calls 2 behind me, I'm pretty much done with the hand. I might call a bet on the river if no more scare cards show.

[GHL]

Fold.... anyone with a good spade at this level is not folding so raising realistically won't win you the pot right here with a raise... and I think you're drawing very slim if you have the best hand.. and I'm not sure you have the best hand at this time.

I don't like the PF raise.. 2 Ep limpers and you're in EP.. KQ os isn't the type of hand that is that powerful.. It is dominated by to many hands... I know its 2/4 and people play anything but shouldn't UTG and UTG+1 be respected a little bit? Is that hand relly playable for a raise in EP even without the limpers?

Then you get 3 bet PF... what type of hands can realistically 3-bet UTG and UTG+1 limping and another early position person raising? And you say he is one of the really good TAGs? What hands do good TAGs 3 bet all that EP action? I would bet the worst of them is AK or QQ... the other one of them has you dominated... the two that I didn't mention have you crushed... Do you think he does this with something as bad as AQ or AJ? You're 50/50 against AxXs.

[shadow29]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like the PF raise.. 2 Ep limpers and you're in EP.. KQ os isn't the type of hand that is that powerful.. It is dominated by to many hands... I know its 2/4 and people play anything but shouldn't UTG and UTG+1 be respected a little bit? Is that hand relly playable for a raise in EP even without the limpers?

[/ QUOTE ]

I raise this UTG. I don't respect limpers at 2/4. They are just too weak. And KQ has a huge edge against random hands. You are missing tons of equity if you routinely fold or even call this.

[shadow29]

So the reason not to call is that we want to shut the TAG out of his AQ or JJ or QQ without a spade?

Why not call, see what TAG does and then re-evaluate on the turn card? I'm guessing that your equity will spike tremendously on a non flush turn.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
Why not call, see what TAG does and then re-evaluate on the turn card? I'm guessing that your equity will spike tremendously on a non flush turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would like calling a whole lot better if it wasn't for the pesky matter of the fourth player in the CO.

[KDawgCometh]

[ QUOTE ]
So the reason not to call is that we want to shut the TAG out of his AQ or JJ or QQ without a spade?

Why not call, see what TAG does and then re-evaluate on the turn card? I'm guessing that your equity will spike tremendously on a non flush turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess, but the TAG being involved in this hand makes our life more difficult, I want him out as soon as possible

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold.... anyone with a good spade at this level is not folding so raising realistically won't win you the pot right here with a raise... and I think you're drawing very slim if you have the best hand.. and I'm not sure you have the best hand at this time.

I don't like the PF raise.. 2 Ep limpers and you're in EP.. KQ os isn't the type of hand that is that powerful.. It is dominated by to many hands... I know its 2/4 and people play anything but shouldn't UTG and UTG+1 be respected a little bit? Is that hand relly playable for a raise in EP even without the limpers?

Then you get 3 bet PF... what type of hands can realistically 3-bet UTG and UTG+1 limping and another early position person raising? And you say he is one of the really good TAGs? What hands do good TAGs 3 bet all that EP action? I would bet the worst of them is AK or QQ... the other one of them has you dominated... the two that I didn't mention have you crushed... Do you think he does this with something as bad as AQ or AJ? You're 50/50 against AxXs.

[/ QUOTE ]

This advice is so wrong I don't know where to start. Brunson &amp; Hellmuth don't hang at 2/4 limit very often...a lot of very loose, very very bad players do.

BTW, if that's me in MP2 vs. two unkown limpers &amp; a MP1 raise, my 3-betting range consists of AK-AQ, AA-TT. On higher limits it expands to include just about all pocket pairs.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]

BTW, if that's me in MP2 vs. two unkown limpers &amp; a MP1 raise, my 3-betting range consists of AK-AQ, AA-TT. On higher limits it expands to include just about all pocket pairs.

[/ QUOTE ]

So at 3/6 or 5/10, when a TAG raises two weak limpers, you're three-betting next in with a hand like 66?

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
So the reason not to call is that we want to shut the TAG out of his AQ or JJ or QQ without a spade?

Why not call, see what TAG does and then re-evaluate on the turn card? I'm guessing that your equity will spike tremendously on a non flush turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

The CO is one reason. The other reason is that I want to find out now if my KQ is good vs. the TAG, and not on the turn when I have to blow at least 1 BB to find out. Consider what he might have, assuming a normal 3-betting range:

AK: Beats you, and calls 2 on the flop. Might 3-bet, especially if he's holding the A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
AQs: Folds unless it's A/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, in which case he probably calls 2 with the intention of raising the turn.
AA: Calls 2, probably 3-bets if holding A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
KK: 3-bets.
QQ: Probably folds. Might call 2 if holding Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
JJ/TT: Folds.

Basically, with the possible exception of QQ with a spade, everything the TAG holds that you beat folds to your raise, while everything that beats you either calls or 3-bets. Makes the rest of the hand a lot easier to play, and the pot is already big enough to focus on increasing your odds of winning it vs. trying to keep players drawing thin in it.

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
So at 3/6 or 5/10, when a TAG raises two weak limpers, you're three-betting next in with a hand like 66?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've done that a few times at 15/30. I don't give the average 3/6 or 5/10 player enough credit to consider them capable of folding JT or A3s for 2 more SBs. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[GHL]

You may be right.. Brunson and Hellmuth don't hang @ 2/4.... but he did mention the guy who 3 bet was a good TAG and if he is he noticed that there were 2 limpers and a raiser... his raising 3 betting hands could include QQ &amp; JJ but I doubt TT... KQos is one of the harder hands to play without position because it gets dominated by hands so easily... and 4 of the hands that dominate it are well within reach of the TAG who 3 bet it.

To me the possibilities of being up against a bigger K, AA or KK.... and the obvious flush draw and the not so obvious 78 from one of the EP limpers.... 78 suited is a hand people will limp with in EP in 2/4.....

If you call what do you do if raised on the flop? If you call and the two left to act just call then what?

I was a little harsh on the KQos raise... sure... but that was because I knew he was 3 bet.. so my appologies on that... but I think this hand is ending badly for our hero.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So the reason not to call is that we want to shut the TAG out of his AQ or JJ or QQ without a spade?

Why not call, see what TAG does and then re-evaluate on the turn card? I'm guessing that your equity will spike tremendously on a non flush turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

The CO is one reason. The other reason is that I want to find out now if my KQ is good vs. the TAG, and not on the turn when I have to blow at least 1 BB to find out. Consider what he might have, assuming a normal 3-betting range:

AK: Beats you, and calls 2 on the flop. Might 3-bet, especially if he's holding the A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
AQs: Folds unless it's A/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, in which case he probably calls 2 with the intention of raising the turn.
AA: Calls 2, probably 3-bets if holding A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
KK: 3-bets.
QQ: Probably folds. Might call 2 if holding Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
JJ/TT: Folds.

Basically, with the possible exception of QQ with a spade, everything the TAG holds that you beat folds to your raise, while everything that beats you either calls or 3-bets. Makes the rest of the hand a lot easier to play, and the pot is already big enough to focus on increasing your odds of winning it vs. trying to keep players drawing thin in it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really like this seemingly basic analysis, which illustrates a rare time when the primary reason for a raise may well be for information. Of course, using this flop raise to try to easily deduce the strength of our hand relative to hand being held by the TAG assumes that this somewhat loose-aggressive player wouldn't three-bet preflop with AQo.

[mr pink]

why is everyone so worried about the TAG behind us? raising here to find out if the TAG has us beat doesn't really make much sense because if he's got half a brain he's calling with everything that has us beat and raising the turn or folding everything that we're ahead of.

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
why is everyone so worried about the TAG behind us? raising here to find out if the TAG has us beat doesn't really make much sense because if he's got half a brain he's calling with everything that has us beat and raising the turn or folding everything that we're ahead of.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why I said that if he coldcalls/3-bets the flop, I'm done with the hand. The only way I'm putting another cent into the pot is if MP2 &amp; CO both fold and/or it's checked around on a blank turn &amp; 1 bet to me closing the action on another blank river. Well, okay, also if I catch my 5-outer on the turn.

If Hero is going to continue this hand, it's under the working assumption that UTG+1 does not have the flush. If UTG+1 does have the flush, Hero is drawing next to dead &amp; should fold immediately. Since I'm not ready to give credit for a flopped flush just yet, my primary concern is to see if my TP2K is worth continuing with...the easiest way to get a handle on that is to raise immediately &amp; see what the 2 behind you (and, less importantly, UTG+1) do. We do not generally have to worry about the TAG calling with a naked A/images/graemlins/spade.gif because he's probably not 3-betting with AQo in that situation preflop (maybe, but probably not). No read is provided for the CO, but generally speaking when a player calls 3 cold he's either an uberdonk or has a medium pocket pair. No great worry there, unless he hit a set, and he'll let us know if he did that. So, basically, the raise tells us immediately if we're ahead of the two players behind us now, and allows us to exit while losing the least money when we're not. And of course we're folding to a bet if another spade shows.

If you just call the flop bet, you enter the more expensive turn in the same situation you're in now--not knowing if your TP is good, because the TAG (and the CO) can call 1 bet on the flop with a much wider range of hands than they can call 2.