A slow play gone wrong

[Roland]

Beer was watching this one and asked me to post it. Raise 4th? Call 5th?


7 Card Stud High ($10/$20), Ante $1, Bring-In $3 (hand converter (http://www.geocities.com/greenage22/7StudConverter.hta.txt))

3rd Street - (0.60 SB)

Hero: A/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/heart.gif___calls
Seat 4: xx xx J/images/graemlins/heart.gif___calls
Seat 5: xx xx T/images/graemlins/spade.gif___calls
Seat 6: xx xx K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___brings-in
Seat 8: xx xx 9/images/graemlins/club.gif___calls

4th Street - (2.10 SB)

Hero: A/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif___checks___calls
Seat 4: xx xx J/images/graemlins/heart.gif 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___checks___calls
Seat 5: xx xx T/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___bets
Seat 7: xx xx 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 9/images/graemlins/club.gif 7/images/graemlins/club.gif___calls

5th Street - (3.05 BB)

Hero: A/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___raises___calls
Seat 4: xx xx J/images/graemlins/heart.gif 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5/images/graemlins/club.gif___checks___folds
Seat 5: xx xx T/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif___checks___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 9/images/graemlins/club.gif 7/images/graemlins/club.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif___bets___raises

6th Street - (9.05 BB)

Hero: A/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___checks___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 9/images/graemlins/club.gif 7/images/graemlins/club.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/club.gif___bets

River - (11.05 BB)

Hero: A/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif___checks___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 9/images/graemlins/club.gif 7/images/graemlins/club.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/club.gif xx___bets

Total pot: (13.05 BB)

Results:
Main Pot: $258 | Rake: $3

[bigredlemon]

never slowplay trips in stud8. Fortunately here there's no one drawing to a low so it'll play a lot like stud8.

[Roland]

[ QUOTE ]
never slowplay trips in stud8. Fortunately here there's no one drawing to a low so it'll play a lot like stud8.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[mscags]

I think he got a little confused.

[Bartholow]

Now that's funny. Can't believe those other guys missed the joke.

[Bartholow]

Why'd you have to post something interesting exactly one minute after my 2 boring hands?

Seriously though, I think you played fine. I might have raised 4th if I didn't think it would kill the action. Versus a lot of guys waiting is fine though, because they won't raise you later with 2 pair.

[BeerMoney]

Roland, I really think you should have raised 4th.

[djr]

[ QUOTE ]
never slowplay trips in stud8.

[/ QUOTE ]
True

[ QUOTE ]
Fortunately here there's no one drawing to a low

[/ QUOTE ]
True

[ QUOTE ]
it'll play a lot like stud8.

[/ QUOTE ]
False

At least two statements out of three are correct /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[beta1607]

At first this hand seemed like it played itself but the more I think about it the more interesting it is.

I like a check-raise on 4th to charge everyone two bets while you still have the most equity in the pot and most streets to fill up on. I think that seat 8 caught scary enough on 5th that it is close between calling and raising but in this case I like calling to try for overcalls and not open myself up to a 3-bet.

Whenever you get frustrated about losing a rolled up hand, just think about that time I payed you off with your rolled tens which you pretty much played to perfection.

[BeerMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that seat 8 caught scary enough on 5th that it is close between calling and raising but in this case I like calling to try for overcalls and not open myself up to a 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I think what the raise on 5th accomplished was getting his opponents to correctly fold. This is a situation where if hero's behind, he wants the other's in cause he's drawing to a monster.

[Roland]

[ QUOTE ]
Whenever you get frustrated about losing a rolled up hand, just think about that time I payed you off with your rolled tens which you pretty much played to perfection.

[/ QUOTE ]


If you had been watching on 3rd, you could have folded aces up on the river. That would have been classic. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[10-20Jerome]

You played rolled up cards by the book wait untill the larger rounds to bet........Guess thats the differnce between us everbody has read that part of the book slow play rolled up cards. Not I, but I play super fast on the smaller betting rounds anyway. If I were to just call the bring in, I would be giving away the value of my hand. Espically if it were an A. This play might not work unless you are a fast player on 3rd. Id complete it and reraise it But like I said if your a more conservitive I dont see how you could have played it any different. This ususally gets the flush and str8 draws out of the way (ususally) and hopefully some one else has a pair the ideal sitution for me 1 or 2 players vs. my rolled up AAA.Or for that matter rolled up anything. You can see the trouble there in. If you can afford it I suggest you go to a lower limit game or any game for that matter and try playing very very fast on 3rd and 4th see how it works for you some people cant play that way Its the only way i know how to win more often then lose. The biiger the ante the better. Like nothern Maryland there is a card club that plays 10-20 with a 2 ante and a 5 dollar bring in. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif Very rewarding for aggersive play. After thought the ante doesnt have to be big just the ratio of the pot size to the frist rasie should be EX. 3-6 stud 50cent ante 8 players 4 dollars in antes 1 dollar bring in 5 dollar pot frist raise 3 dollars(you) 3 to win 5 get awawy with it less often for it to be succesfull where the 10-20 with dollar ante there is 8 dollars in ante and one two dollar bring. 10 to win 10 or maybe 11 if it was a 3 dollar bring in your raise has to work more often then not

[Roland]

[ QUOTE ]
Jerome - you may wish to explore the new and fascinating world of paragraphs. Too much work to follow that post otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]


I couldn’t help myself. And while you’re at it, try using some punctuation too.

When you talk about playing fast, what hands are you referring to? I do play my big and medium pairs fast. I play flush and straight draws with over cards fast. I limp with small three-flushes (and sometimes with a small pair/decent kicker).
I’m guessing you’re talking about hands like 77A, right? Problem is I usually fold that if there are two or three over cards behind me (unless the game is very tight). So usually if I raise with an ace up you’ll find another one in the hole. Good news is, I get called anyway (that’s why I don’t like 77A, of course). Just not always. Sometimes, everyone folds – which is okay with aces, but horrible with rolled up aces. (I do play smaller trips fast). For that reason, I’m wary of completing with them.
As for you’re suggestion of moving down in limits, I do see you’re point. But I’m trying to make some $$$ and if that means playing in those tightly structured party games, what can I do. Besides, I’d rather move up.

[10-20Jerome]

Ok move up, my suggestion is just try playing in a game where the pot ratio to the first raise rewards fast play.
I know for a fact the 10-20 game in AC rewards tight play patience is key. Ive heard (dont know) the stud games out west have larger antes in realation to the limits.
new paragarph

Since relocateing to the west might not be a realistic option lets see if we can find a good game on the internet. Which brings this to mind, is there a good 15-30 or 20-40 stud game on the internet. Good to me is a large ante game say 10-20 with at least a 2 ante and 3 bring in? As for the slow play gone wrong again dont see it could have been played differnet. If he/she had a four flush on 4th they probably would call any bet or raise. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[10-20Jerome]

Something else, these type of hands are ify I think. The 77A you were refering to. I will raise even with overs behind me if I see no 7 or A or if I have a two flush and no other cards of that suit are showing. Yes Im probably going to get called and maybe raised. I reraise, see I have no respect for money at the tables. Its not money to me.....more like a game token you use to play the game with, like a letter in scarable our a building block in jenga. The pot I could possibale win if I improve will be nice if not huge. And surelly you A up will slow down most hands even KK.

Sounds like you play internet poker alot. That is a different monster than a real life poker room appreantly people all ready play super fast anyway so I really cant say much about that. Question, maybe a statement, you see aleast double the hands on the internet if not more so I guess sitting around and waiting for the best situations to get you chips in is a little more advisable. But if Im holding KKX at the taj and the A in front takes the action away I fold. Maybe KK calls down A alot more on the internet.

[Roland]

[ QUOTE ]
new paragarph

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks a lot . (Not alot). /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Since relocateing to the west might not be a realistic option

[/ QUOTE ]


Indeed. I’m from Germany. /images/graemlins/grin.gif (As for live games over here, I’ve heard the rake is way too high; and there’s no card room near where I live anyway).

[ QUOTE ]
Which brings this to mind, is there a good 15-30 or 20-40 stud game on the internet. Good to me is a large ante game say 10-20 with at least a 2 ante and 3 bring in?

[/ QUOTE ]


Beer asked this question a while ago (see his post “I need a new drug”) and unfortunately the answer is no. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Roland]

[ QUOTE ]
Something else, these type of hands are ify I think. The 77A you were refering to. I will raise even with overs behind me if I see no 7 or A or if I have a two flush and no other cards of that suit are showing. Yes Im probably going to get called and maybe raised.

[/ QUOTE ]


It’s not like I never play that hand. It depends on a lot of things (who is holding the over cards, if they are duplicated, who has already entered the pot, how the game has been playing etc.). Always playing it can’t be correct though.



[ QUOTE ]
I reraise, see I have no respect for money at the tables. Its not money to me.....more like a game token you use to play the game with

[/ QUOTE ]


Same here. If the money needs to go in, it needs to go in. I just like to be certain I’m making a +EV move.



[ QUOTE ]
Sounds like you play internet poker alot.

[/ QUOTE ]


Yes. I play exclusively on the internet.



[ QUOTE ]
Question, maybe a statement, you see aleast double the hands on the internet if not more so I guess sitting around and waiting for the best situations to get you chips in is a little more advisable. But if Im holding KKX at the taj and the A in front takes the action away I fold. Maybe KK calls down A alot more on the internet.

[/ QUOTE ]


You sort of contradict yourself here.
First you say playing tight makes more sense on the internet because you get to see more hands. Then you say you fold KK to a raise from an ace.

I would think you should play accordingly to the structure and the players both live and online.
As for kings calling down an ace raiser online – yes, you’ll probably get called down over 90% of the time by kings (if they are out there). Also by queens, jacks, tens, you name it.

[10-20Jerome]

The games I play in respect the raise from the over card 90% of the time KKJ is A sure fold to XXA espically if there is a K out our a J. But on the internet you say you will get called 90% of the time. What Im saying is you see more preimum hands online so way not wait if you lose with them no bigge lots more coming. Why not wait? I cant see calling with KK if the A has already taken the action from me,you or anyone for that matter. Whould you call with 558 if a K took the lead. I hope not or hope so if it was my K. If you make a mistake at a brick and mortar room it could take hours to rebound, if you premium pair gets busted up again hours to come back, maybe. On the internet why even put yourself in the sitution just fold and wait for a better spot its coming soon. Even if they dont have AA and then catch on 5th probably looking at AA up now, and in the mean time if youve made two pair KK up your in trouble.

Ill play just about any hand if my door card is higher than any card showing providing there is no more of my door cards outand no one else has took the lead. Sounds loose and fishy but over time it works, espically when new people sit in. They catch JJ3 coming over the top of my 55A raise get reraised and I catch them on 6th. There mad, they dont understand your door card is just as important as your hole cards. As ive said before I pay people off no bigge, put the pots I win are either small or very large thats they way to play stud. If you ever question this method just watch a succefull(wins more then 1 bet an hour ) player for month

[Roland]

[ QUOTE ]
What Im saying is you see more preimum hands online so way not wait if you lose with them no bigge lots more coming. Why not wait?

[/ QUOTE ]


I do. Others don’t.


[ QUOTE ]
I cant see calling with KK if the A has already taken the action from me

[/ QUOTE ]



I can. You might want to check out this thread. Link. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2512613&page=&view=&sb=5& o=&vc=1)


[ QUOTE ]
Whould you call with 558 if a K took the lead.

[/ QUOTE ]


That’s not quite the same…