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Lalit Khajuria
06-19-2005, 01:29 PM
What a flop. Discuss.

brassnuts
06-19-2005, 02:15 PM
Sucks for Wacki.

Lalit Khajuria
06-19-2005, 02:22 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Sucks for
150000 people that traveled there to watch the race..

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

tbach24
06-19-2005, 02:35 PM
Care to fill us in on what happened?

Lalit Khajuria
06-19-2005, 02:45 PM
There is usually 20 cars/race. Now 14 drivers(including F1 serie leaders) decided they wont start to the race because of some tyre-problems.
So now there is 6 cars going around the circuit for 73 laps..
Most of the watchers have allready left the circuit..

billyjex
06-19-2005, 02:49 PM
just read the story on espn.

something about michelin gave a warning to not race, that their tires were a danger. the only cars running are on bridgestone tires i believe.

seems ridiculous.

mason55
06-19-2005, 03:02 PM
Does Bernie just not care about the US market? I mean, if you're going to allow a race to run with 6 cars, what does he think is going to happen? This sets F1 back probably 20 years in the US market. HAhahahah I just heard that Bernie left the track with 20 laps left. The French affiliate has already switched off the race.

#2 or #3 in attendence for the entire F1 season. Truthfully I think it's smart that Bernie left because he is going to get murdered if he gets caught leaving by the fans.

This is so ridiculous.

mason55
06-19-2005, 03:41 PM
This is the most entertaining race I've seen in a long time. No presenters for the podium. The crowd booing the winners and chanting F1 sucks at the presentation. HALF THE STARTING DRIVERS ARE ON THE PODIUM.

wacki
06-19-2005, 04:29 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Sucks for Wacki.

[/ QUOTE ]

[censored] [censored] [censored] [censored] [censored] [censored] [censored] [censored] [censored] [censored]

$800 on tickets wasted. My ticket was $85.

F1 is the greatest racing sport IMO. Yet only 1/3 people from that track are from Indiana. [censored] [censored] [censored]. It was much worse than on TV. People were throwing beer cans on the track. My brother watched one of them hit a car zooming by. I feel bad for Tony George. I really wanted F1 to take off in the US. [censored] [censored] [censored] [censored] [censored]

Also [censored] the president of the F1 and his stupid [censored] rules.

BTW the crowd was yelling very loudly "BULLSHIT BULLSHIT" throughout the race. The news doesn't show how upset the crowd was. We left early.

On a side note:

After a lengthy morning meeting, nine of the 10 F-1 teams said they would only compete if the chicane was put in place. Ferrari, which fields cars for Michael Schumacher and Rubens Barrichello, was the only team to refuse the chicane.

Linky (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/racing/06/19/bc.car.f1.unitedstatesg.ap/index.html?cnn=yes)

I can understand Ferrari's position because F1 really screwed them and Bridgestone's softer tire compound with their new rules. Still, somebody should of given in. I can NOT believe the president of F1 didn't budge. This is so bad. Most of the people there were europeans. They flew across the planet just for this race.

-drunk and pissed

wacki

wacki
06-19-2005, 07:24 PM
Bernie Ecclestone, president and CEO of forumla one:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/26/Bernie_Ecclestone.jpg


sucks!

partygirluk
06-19-2005, 08:10 PM
Was going to watch this but fell asleep before hand. How awful. Most of the racing drivers and team owners think this has irrevocably ruined F1 in America.

The Fans have every right to be furious. They should get their tickets refunded, and Ecclestone should be happy he doesn't have to give any further compensation. The tickets should be refunded because they bought tickets to a F1 race and didn't get it. They should really get extra compensation on top of that because they have had to give up time and travel money, had hopes crushed etc. Sick.

partygirluk
06-19-2005, 08:12 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40643000/jpg/_40643366_grid-getty300.jpg

mason55
06-19-2005, 10:50 PM
This was the mos tridiculous motorsport event I have ever seen. It was entertaining watching at home but I woudl be PISSED if I was there in person. F1 just shot itsefl in the foot, the nuts, the face, the leg, the chest, and the arm, all at the same time. I will continue to watch but man... they have NO chance in the USA after this fiasco.

Drac
06-19-2005, 11:35 PM
[ QUOTE ]
The Fans have every right to be furious. They should get their tickets refunded, and Ecclestone should be happy he doesn't have to give any further compensation. The tickets should be refunded because they bought tickets to a F1 race and didn't get it. They should really get extra compensation on top of that because they have had to give up time and travel money, had hopes crushed etc. Sick.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is who is going to give the money back? It's not like it's Tony's fault this thing went to hell. Freaking Bernie bitches that the race is under marketed and it's the 2nd or 3rd highest attended event each year in F1? George pays $5 million for this garbage? I'm thinking he's spending some more money on lawyers this week.

I tried to give F1 another shot this year and it has actually been much better up till now. You just can't run a "sport" like this and expect to survive. Who the hell is going to go back if there is a race next year? Beyond the die hard, hard core F1 fans who would want to risk their hard earned money on a cluster fk like this?

mason55
06-19-2005, 11:43 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The Fans have every right to be furious. They should get their tickets refunded, and Ecclestone should be happy he doesn't have to give any further compensation. The tickets should be refunded because they bought tickets to a F1 race and didn't get it. They should really get extra compensation on top of that because they have had to give up time and travel money, had hopes crushed etc. Sick.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is who is going to give the money back? It's not like it's Tony's fault this thing went to hell. Freaking Bernie bitches that the race is under marketed and it's the 2nd or 3rd highest attended event each year in F1? George pays $5 million for this garbage? I'm thinking he's spending some more money on lawyers this week.

I tried to give F1 another shot this year and it has actually been much better up till now. You just can't run a "sport" like this and expect to survive. Who the hell is going to go back if there is a race next year? Beyond the die hard, hard core F1 fans who would want to risk their hard earned money on a cluster fk like this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously Bernie should be giving the refunds. Look, it's a good rule but when 70% of the racers have to pull out due to safety concerns and you won't give a one time exemption (remember the rule is new this year) then you have to realize the fans will be pissed. If Bernie doesn't do something about this then he better not come back because he will be COLDLY received when F1 comes back to the United States.

Drac
06-19-2005, 11:53 PM
It will be a cold day in hell before Bernie forks over $10 million + of his own money. Once he starts giving money to the ticket holders you know George will be wanting his $5 million back, the sponsors will want their money back, etc...

George has spent tens of millions of dollars to bring F1 to the US and they just boned him for his troubles. With an ego as big as Tony's I'm really interested to see how this developes.

mason55
06-19-2005, 11:54 PM
[ QUOTE ]
It will be a cold day in hell before Bernie forks over $10 million + of his own money. Once he starts giving money to the ticket holders you know George will be wanting his $5 million back, the sponsors will want their money back, etc...

George has spent tens of millions of dollars to bring F1 to the US and they just boned him for his troubles. With an ego as big as Tony's I'm really interested to see how this developes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Women should be dressed in white like the rest of the domestic appliances.


What a douche.

wacki
06-20-2005, 12:02 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Obviously Bernie should be giving the refunds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. And since half the people there were from Europe, it wouldn't hurt if he bought them all plane tickets too.

He's the [censored] CEO and the president of F1. He has all the power and it's his sole responsibility to make sure this race happens. He is responsible for this mess in more ways than one IMO.

wacki
06-20-2005, 12:06 AM
[ QUOTE ]
With an ego as big as Tony's I'm really interested to see how this developes.


[/ QUOTE ]

Word of the day: Litigation

And George can win this one.

mason55
06-20-2005, 12:10 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
With an ego as big as Tony's I'm really interested to see how this developes.


[/ QUOTE ]

Word of the day: Litigation

And George can win this one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. Bernie is in serious trouble and deserves a HUGE lawsuit. If he wants to have absolute power over FIA then he takes absolute blame when something goes wrong.

I just cant' understand what he was thinking today, deciding it would be a good idea to run with 6 people. From his other sound bytes though he's obviously mentally challenged.

wacki
06-20-2005, 12:28 AM
-180,000 ticket refunds (my tickets were $85).

-$15 million George paid FIA for the privilege of letting bernie buttfuck him.

-various other costs

This could get very expensive for bernie. Somehow I doubt he'll get reamed that hard but I hope he does.

Arnfinn Madsen
06-20-2005, 01:59 AM
It was a sort of trap not easy to get out of. It was Michelin who messed it all up by making the mistake of bringing unsuitable tires. I guess FIA did not want to give Michelin a second chance to avoid presedence.

Could have found a much smarter solution though, i.e. chicane but 1 minute penalty for all Michelin-drivers.

wacki
06-20-2005, 11:42 AM
[ QUOTE ]
It was Michelin who messed it all up by making the mistake of bringing unsuitable tires.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bullshit. We are talking about uber high end/experimental performance products. These products are going to have mistakes in them every now and then. This is the whole point of having a high end technology race. PLus it's tires, it's not like you can test them out like you can other products. Michelin did exactly what they were supposed to do and warned their drivers. Under your system they would be more inclined to "sweep the problem under the rug" and not warn the drivers. That is a horrible situation and a horrible rule to have. You don't mess with anything involved with safety and tires are included. It's a stupid rule.

Michelin behaved perfectly IMO. Whoever made that rule is retarded and bernie is retarded for not figuring out a solution. It's his job to make sure the show goes on and he had plenty of time to solve this problem. He [censored] up.

2planka
06-20-2005, 12:27 PM
In case anyone missed the reference:

More evidence that Bernie (http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/news/story?series=irl&id=2089257) is a moran.

wacki
06-20-2005, 12:37 PM
Just to point one more thing out. 14 drivers, their managers, their owners, and their sponsers all agreed to boycott this race. They all had a ton of time and money invested in this race. You don't get that many people, with that much invested, boycotting a very lucrative race without a very good reason.

2planka
06-20-2005, 12:54 PM
I actually missed the race yesterday because I had a baseball game of my own. I heard about the debacle on the radio and deleted the tivo file without watching it.

Plenty of blame to go around (Michelin is in the front of the line, IMO), but this will cripple F1 in the US - especially with the hype surrounding Patrick.

wacki
06-20-2005, 01:23 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Michelin is in the front of the line, IMO

[/ QUOTE ]

http://msn.foxsports.com/motor/story/3652614

"In one way the rules have been good for overtaking and entertainment, but there is no question that it is more dangerous," Coulthard told The Times.

http://www.planetf1.com/features/letters/story_19720.shtml
The Unsafe One-Tyre Rule Must End Now
I am writing this in the heat of the moment, I have just seen my favourite driver, Kimi Raikkonen, exit the race on the very last lap due to an exploding tyre. I am sure all other fans were dreading but expecting this very moment. If you watch the footage closely, it was merely a matter of millimeters between Raikkonen and Button. Imagine what could have happened if Raikkonen had hit Button... or, imagine what would have happened if his tyre had actually hit him during the explosion, it almost looked like it did.

I'd rather have a race botched than a driver die. It seems that you don't feel the same.

The fact that people are putting so much blame on Michelin only shows their ignorance of the situation. (Keep in mind that due to the UN scandal I am boycotting French products right now yet I am defending a French tire company.) Tires, especially high performance tires, are not the easiest thing in the world to test.

2planka
06-20-2005, 01:32 PM
I'm not suggesting that I'd prefer an unsafe race. It's simply that Michelin failed to validate their design for the particular track conditions. They knew the F1 rules, they presumably had ample time to evaluate, verify, and validate their design, and they (Michelin) chose not to perform a risk analysis until the 11th hour and only then after two crashes which fortunately did not result in serious injuries.

Seems that the vitriol is being deflected away from Michelin and onto F1, George, et. al. Michelin failed and then tried to have the rules changed after the fact.

We'll see what happens in two weeks.

edit:

And kimi raikkonen abused the hell out of his tires in germany. He had a commanding lead and made several unforced mistakes that put him in the gravel and damaged that right front tire. The vibration of the damaged tire caused the wheel to rupture from the car, not an "exploding tire." The tire was intact as he spun out of control. Raikkonen's life was saved by the wheel tether, as the wheel would have crushed him had it not been for the tether. Different issue altogether. Not sure why you bring it up.

.... unless that is to say that you disapprove of the no tire change rule. You have a point with that.

also, it was the decision of raikkonen's team not to change the tire - clearly allowed due to the damage. They gambled and lost.

My pont is that I don't hold Michelin responsible per se for raikkonen's crash in germany. I do hold Michelin responsible for failing to design a tire for the US GP.

maryfield48
06-20-2005, 01:33 PM
[ QUOTE ]
(Keep in mind that due to the UN scandal I am boycotting French products right now yet I am defending a French tire company.) Tires, especially high performance tires, are not the easiest thing in the world to test.

[/ QUOTE ]

Congratulations on not being influenced by something completely unrelated to this issue.

That said, you are right that Michelin is not the problem here. They did what they had to do - apart from any moral obligations, to have done anything else would have exposed them to even greater loss of reputation had an accident occured with a Michelin-shod car during the race.

2planka
06-20-2005, 02:26 PM
[ QUOTE ]
It seems that you don't feel the same.

The fact that people are putting so much blame on Michelin only shows their ignorance of the situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

I took a few minutes to think through my response to this part of your post.

I don't know where you get the notion that I want to see carnage, or that I'm at all ignorant of "the situation," as you put it. Maybe you're just trying to spice things up.

Fact: Michelin is responsible for designing the tires.
Fact: Michelin is aware of the F1 rules.
Fact: Michelin became aware of a defect in their design.
Fact: Michelin urged their teams not to race.

Okay, so Michelin did the responsible thing at the last minute. Good for them. It took a very close call for them to act at all. Obviously, the Michelin design was not suffieciently robust to tolerate the track conditions. They failed and essentially recalled all the tires supplied for the race. I agree that it must have been a major defect.

Is the problem with the tires or with the track? Bridgestone apparently had no trouble with the track, but who's to say they didn't get lucky?

You seem to be straddling this one, wacki. What gives?

Arnfinn Madsen
06-20-2005, 02:33 PM
They could aquire data from how the track affects the pressure upon the tires (it is available) and make the right compound based on this. They failed to make good enough tires (it is a engineering blunder).

wacki
06-20-2005, 02:54 PM
[ QUOTE ]
You seem to be straddling this one, wacki. What gives?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not straddling, being realistic. The FIA has put many restrictions on the testing process.

Also, the engines of those cars cost half a million dollars. In order to fully test ONE set of tires under the exact same racing conditions you are going to burn through a half a million dollar engine. Yes, it is possible to simulate the conditions in a lab but until you do actual road testing you don't know. Also, since there aren't movable parts and products like this aren't the easiest to develop you can't fault them too much. If you think Michelin can do completely thorough real world and fool proof testing of their tires you are living in a dream world.

I agree Michelin messed up. However, it was Bernie's job to make sure the race went on. He has the power, he has the control, he made damn sure of that. He has an obligation to the race fans, the drivers, and Tony George to make sure the race happens. He gets paid millions of dollars during this single race to make sure that one job happens. He failed miserably. Tony George was powerless in this situation as he had no control of his own racetrack because of that contract.

wacki
06-20-2005, 03:09 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Not sure why you bring it up.

[/ QUOTE ]

The link was about the "one tyre rule" being dangerous. I provided the link because I believe it is relevant as to how stupid that rule is. Bernie is choosing entertainment over safety and now he doesn't have either.

I understand your point and that probably wasn't the best example for me to highlight. However, that link is still relevant. More later.... have work to do.

2planka
06-20-2005, 03:18 PM
[ QUOTE ]
The link was about the "one tyre rule" being dangerous. I provided the link because I believe it is relevant as to how stupid that rule is. Bernie is choosing entertainment over safety and now he doesn't have either.


[/ QUOTE ]

You'll get no argument from me about the lunacy of the no tire change rule. In fact, I think it makes races less entertaining. I used to find pit strategy interesting. Now it's just a couple of seconds of fuel and off you go. Fresh tires also make for more interesting finishes.

The *wink wink* reason for the no tire change rule is to *wink wink* slow the cars down. This is absurd. I suspect the real reason is for exciting finishes like we saw in Nurmberg - the leader biting it in turn one.

PhatTBoll
06-20-2005, 04:04 PM
I didn't realize until reading this thread that F1 had this "one tire rule." What an irresponsible, retarded, and ill-conceived joke. The dumbasses responsible for it got what they deserved, but it's too bad that George and all the fans got screwed in the process.

wacki
06-20-2005, 05:10 PM
btw why do they spell it "tyre"? Is that british?

fluxrad
06-20-2005, 08:35 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I didn't realize until reading this thread that F1 had this "one tire rule." What an irresponsible, retarded, and ill-conceived joke. The dumbasses responsible for it got what they deserved, but it's too bad that George and all the fans got screwed in the process.

[/ QUOTE ]

The tire rule was put in place to slow the cars down.

As with just about every other rule in F1 designed to do the same...it has failed miserably.

1. Bring back tire changes.
2. Bring back light-fuel qualifying.
3. Bring back the [censored] NHL.

Patrick del Poker Grande
06-20-2005, 08:38 PM
Slowing the cars down by making them unsafe is absolutely ridiculous.

daveymck
06-21-2005, 10:54 AM
[ QUOTE ]
btw why do they spell it "tyre"? Is that british?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes its tyre or tyres over here.

The commentators on UK coverage basically said this year there was always going to be background arguments and politics as the wrestling for control of the sport, this was the culmination of it.

The sport has lost it completely with this, it was losing it anyway races like processions, pit stops deciding the races, it was meant to be about the drivers. F1 is probably one of the least entertaining forms of racing around at the moment.

daveymck
06-21-2005, 10:56 AM
They also mentioned that the track has recently been relayed and bridstone had an advantage as they had data from I think one of the Indy races there (or formula ford or somthing) whixh is why teir tyres were ready for the course.

wacki
06-23-2005, 12:30 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2f/800px-Blame_Mosley_banner.jpg

wacki
06-23-2005, 12:41 PM
Interesting Interview with Mosley president of Fédération Internationale de l'Automobile:

Should you not have just forgotten about the rules and put on a show for the fans?

"You cannot do that if you wish to remain a sport. Formula One is a sport which entertains. It is not entertainment disguised as sport. But even more importantly Formula One is a dangerous activity and it would be most unwise to make fundamental changes to a circuit without following tried and tested procedures. What happened was bad, but it can be put right. This is not true of a fatality."

Hmmm...... So he admits he isn't flexible.

Also:

who travelled long distances and spent a lot of money to see a race with only six cars?

"My personal view, and it is only my personal view, is that Michelin should offer to compensate the fans on a fair basis and ask the Indianapolis Motor Speedway to coordinate this. Then Tony George and Bernie Ecclestone should jointly announce that the US Grand Prix will take place at Indianapolis in 2006 and that anyone who had a ticket this year would be entitled to the same ticket free-of-charge next year. But I emphasise, that’s just my personal view."


interesting side note about the chicane:

Is this why Ferrari objected?
"No, Ferrari had nothing whatever to do with the decision. They were never consulted. Ferrari, Jordan and Minardi, as the Bridgestone teams, were not involved."

Looks like Ferrari is 100% off the hook.

On the other hand some of his comments about michelin give me pause for accuracy reasons

web page (http://f1.racing-live.com/en/index.html?http://f1.racing-live.com/en/headlines/news/detail/050623001818.shtml)

Drac
06-23-2005, 09:57 PM
[ QUOTE ]
They also mentioned that the track has recently been relayed and bridstone had an advantage as they had data from I think one of the Indy races there (or formula ford or somthing) whixh is why teir tyres were ready for the course.

[/ QUOTE ]

They have a deal with Firestone, the supplier of tires for the IRL. With the multiple changes to the racing surface since last year and the fact this is the only high speed banked turn in F1 it gave Bridgestone a huge advantage in being able to prepare a tire for the conditions. Testing was cancelled more than once this year at Indy because of track conditions that required a lot of work.