RAYMER...not so good?

[mybutthurts]

some locals at foxwoods explain that raymer rarely wins in
those ring games. apparently he tries to give too much advice and ends up giving away his money!
im sure you avid 2+2 r's will attempt to defend him so lets hear it.
btw- this is what i heard from several regular grind it out
players.
by no means is this my belief.
btw do you believe money maker wins in ring games now?

[deacsoft]

Mr. Raymer strikes me as someone who is always willing to help people out. He gives advice and pointers on these forums. I don't see why he would do it any different in a live ring game setting. Maybe it's not +EV for him to do so, but I don't believe money is the driving force Mr. Raymer's life.
Just my thoughts and opinions.

[henrikrh]

Dunno if Raymer is good, but saying he isn't seem like it would make an interesting story and would inflate the ego of someone who may have won a pot or two off him. I trust your source not your sources claim.

Evidence for Raymers skill: WSOP 2004 and other cashes.
Evidence against his skill: The word of a Foxwoods player.

Either way, even if he isn't very good at poker, he seems like a nice guy.

[hoopsie44]

I've seen Raymer several times at the Taj in Atlantic City and he's a class act. Very friendly and accomodating to any stranger who comes up to him to congratulate him, talk poker, ask for an autograph, whatever. It cracks me up the way some people always take shots at anyone who achieves any level of success. Lame.

[DesertCat]

[ QUOTE ]
some locals at foxwoods explain that raymer rarely wins in
those ring games. apparently he tries to give too much advice and ends up giving away his money!
im sure you avid 2+2 r's will attempt to defend him so lets hear it.
btw- this is what i heard from several regular grind it out
players.
by no means is this my belief.
btw do you believe money maker wins in ring games now?

[/ QUOTE ]

Gregs' tournament cashes (http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/player.php?a=r&n=7955)

Do your critics have as many cashes as Mr. Fossilman? The word on the street is that he has been a winning player for a number of years in the Foxwoods higher limit games.

As far as your shot at Moneymaker his record the last two years is pretty good.

MoneyMakers' record (http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/player.php?a=r&n=18826)

[crazy canuck]

Greg is not only an excellent player, but also an excellent teacher. Anyone, who disagrees should check out the NL and tourney archives.

[benfranklin]

[ QUOTE ]

by no means is this my belief.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, you have no facts and you don't believe it, but you are going to spread the rumor anyway. A real class act.

Why does every baseless rumor post have a "I don't believe this but..." disclaimer?

[ QUOTE ]

this is what i heard from several regular grind it out
players.

[/ QUOTE ]

And they heard it from a cocktail waitress who heard it from a bartender who heard it from Greg's wife's hairdresser's ex-husband.

No one here needs to defend Greg. We need to defend these forums against people who post the same stupid stories every week.

[Jordan Olsommer]

[ QUOTE ]

Why does every baseless rumor post have a "I don't believe this but..." disclaimer?

[/ QUOTE ]

Covering his ass. People do this all the time to say what they want to say yet somehow absolve themselves of responsibility for saying it. e.g. "I don't want to get out of line here, but <immediately says something out of line>"

IMO, not using the search function to find out if someone's talked about the book you want to discuss is one thing (for a humorous example of this, search for all the threads discussing an error on page 29 of GSIH - I cant count how many people started new threads on that), but not reading his posts to decide for yourself whether or not Raymer knows what he's talking about before launching into the smear thread is pretty irresponsible, even if it is prefixed by "I dont mean to spread rumors, but..."

[Myrtle]

[ QUOTE ]

im sure you avid 2+2 r's will attempt to defend him so lets hear it.
btw- this is what i heard from several regular grind it out
players.


[/ QUOTE ]

.....above kind of hints at the fact that perhaps you might have a bit of an 'attitude' on this one?

Perhaps you could have asked..... "Have any of you 2+2'ers ever played with Greg at Foxwoods? If so, would you share your thoughts on his play?".

FWIW, before Greg won the WSOP, I would hear with regularity, while on breaks during various tournaments, a number of players downgrading Greg's ability. It was interesting to note that, IMO, most of those players were overall pretty weak, and would make statements like that because they really had little understanding of the game.

ps. There are some regular 'grind it out players' at Foxwoods who are regular donators. Always consider the source when you hear this kind of loose talk.

/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[SinCityGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
some locals at foxwoods explain that raymer rarely wins in
those ring games.

[/ QUOTE ]

Some people in Utah told me that Osama Bin Laden lives in Salt Lake City, because his many wives aren't conspicuous there.

[Sponger15SB]

[ QUOTE ]
Gregs' tournament cashes (http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/player.php?a=r&n=7955)

Do your critics have as many cashes as Mr. Fossilman? The word on the street is that he has been a winning player for a number of years in the Foxwoods higher limit games.

As far as your shot at Moneymaker his record the last two years is pretty good.

MoneyMakers' record (http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/player.php?a=r&n=18826)

[/ QUOTE ]

With the exception of greg's WSOP win, his record is hardly impressive.

Obviously my argument there sucks, but whatever.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

Well, I won't bother to say whether I'm any good or not. However, in 12 years of playing poker, I've yet to book a losing year. And I keep full records of every session of poker I play. And the last 6 of those 12 years were while I lived in CT and mostly played at Foxwoods.

Believe it, or not!

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[theRealMacoy]

greg,

you are a class act...through and through!
i wish you all the best in the upcoming tournaments.

cheers,
the Real Macoy

[coffeecrazy1]

Greg, from reading the posts on this thread, I'd say your reputation remains very solid, both as a player and a human being.

Anyone who makes it through ~2600 people cannot be just lucky, to say nothing of the level of competition in those 2600. Almost everyone who qualifies online for the big tournament is a good player already.

As for Moneymaker, I would say that he is a different player now than when he won the WSOP(much better now), but he was not bad then. Just because he had the fairy-tale last name for the tournament does not nullify the fact that he was a good player then, and is now a very good player.

I make none of the above claims about Varkonyi 2.0. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[M2d]

[ QUOTE ]
However, in 12 years of playing poker, I've yet to book a losing year

[/ QUOTE ]
win the first session and hang it up for the year? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

obviously, I'm joking. the advice you've given on this forum has always been top notch. Also, I may be the only one who remembers this, but years ago, there was a thread about which posters are or have the potential to be "world class". iirc, your name was thrown into the ring by either Oz or Mason. I've searched for the thread, but can't find it, so maybe I am imagining it.

[dogmeat]

It's funny how many players dismiss another's talent, regardless of specific results. I was sitting in a tournament at the WSOP with two professional players (both of whom are 10-year+ veterans) and they were laughing about Greg (they referred to him as "the dweeb") as well as Moneymaker and Varkonyi. The fact is, the two players at my table are very good players, and I respect their ability, but it just sounds like sour grapes to me. Neither of these players has a WSOP bracelet /images/graemlins/shocked.gif, and they were basicly slumming in one of the $220 tournaments (with me, another slum bum).

I admit that after being in many tournaments over the years I know that sometimes a player runs hot, and that has a lot to do with final table appearances, but in my humble opinion, you gotta win one semi-major tournament to talk chit, and you have to win a second to prove the first wasn't an accident.

In other words, I don't really listen to what is said by anybody that doesn't have that first win, and I hold my opinion about a player that has won one - until they win a second, although with someone like Greg, even if he never won another WSOP tournament, the fact that he has been among the chip leaaders on second and third days of other tournaments ceratinly says something. I talked to Greg a few days ago, and he had no idea who I was (why should he), and he was very nice. I also watched some fans come by and ask for photos, photo with wife etc. and Greg was very accomodating - this too is the sign of a true professional, and a true champion.

Does Moneymaker win in side games? Poker is a game that allows you to hide you loses, and inflate you wins if that happens to be you inclination. Who knows. He's still playing in upper limit games, right?

Sorry for rambling, but if you talk the talk, you gotta walk the walk.

Dogmeat /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[slavic]

Greg -

Why reply to this stuff? I realize that I’m just an anonymous poker pro, but in my standard ring game play there are several players who are absolutely convinced that I lose substantial money. Some of those players make money and play in the style they have played in for decades, but what do I care if they think I’m a terrible player?

BTW, I do respect that they may be right and the only reason that I'm making significant money is that the games have been so good for so long. After all I haven't hit 3 years yet.

Thanks,
slavic

[burningyen]

I think Greg has legitimate reasons to defend his poker results, not the least of which is his upcoming book.

[b0000000000m]

[ QUOTE ]
the advice you've given on this forum has always been top notch.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correction: the advice you gave on this forum was always top notch.

[Fitz]

Sure, any yo yo can beat the largest tourney field in history, win 5 million dollars, the title of World Champion and claim they know what they are doing!

Good luck,

Fitz

[Jax_Grinder]

http://www.hereinreality.com/funnystuff/otherstuff/brownnose.jpg

[Alex/Mugaaz]

nh

[slamdunkpro]

Greg,

Ignore the critics!

BTW I hope we have the chance to speak nexr time you are in AC. I missed you last time because you were busy talking to the Taj floor guys and the tournament had started back up.

Best wishes

[aggie]

I’ve only read the original post and Raymer’s reply but since I’ve played with Raymer on 3 occasions I figured I’d give my opinion.

The first time I played with Greg dates back a couple of years and was my first time playing in the 5-5 pot limit holdem game at Foxwoods. I immediately noticed greg because he had far and away the largest stack at the table (mostly cash). He seemed to play in every pot and was both winning and losing some big ones. I had a hard time figuring out whether raymer was just a maniac or a calculating / winning player. By the end of the session I decided on the latter.

The second time I played with Greg, he sat to my left. We were both pretty deep (he was far deeper than i)…When I was in the SB I reraised a late position raiser with AA. Raymer studied long and hard before mucking his hand. When I showed the table my hand raymer seemed disappointed that he hadn’t called with his 4-5 suited. He said Aces are exactly the hand he wanted to be against with his hand. That comment hammered home the concept of implied odds in NLHE for me.

I was also very impressed in my final session with him, a very short 10-25nlhe session I played with Raymer (since the WSOP). I have since also read all of Raymer’s archived 2+2 posts and one thing is clear…Dude know’s what he’s talking about….I’ve spoken to many of the very good NLHE players at foxwoods that have played with him and the consensus seems to be that he’s a hell of a player.

The only real negative I see in Raymer’s game is his willingness to talk strategy at the table and possibly his ego (which he constantly defends on this forum). That said, he seems to have great money management and game selection skills, and I doubt he’d play above his head. Even before he was famous watching greg play and listening to him at the table made me a better player. For that, I am greatful!

[MMMMMM]

From what I have seen at Foxwoods: Greg generally did quite well in the live No-Limit games a few years ago (that being the time period when I was sometimes playing in those games).

[MaxPower]

I generally believe about 5% of what I hear in a card room.

[Myrtle]

[ QUOTE ]
I generally believe about 5% of what I hear in a card room.

[/ QUOTE ]

One has to be able to recognize excellence before one can make comments about it. Kind of like an algebra student proffering opinions on quantum mechanics.

How many of the FW regulars can truly do that?

A handfull, IMO.....Based upon what I know about the players there.....around 5-10% seems right.

[Martin Aigner]

Guess he really is a sucker (http://www.pokerpages.com/tournament/result10860.htm)