AA facing crazy aggression

[kcluu16]

Should I have bailed earlier??

I'm thinking with the aggression I faced preflop, that I should have only called the turn rather than raise it.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB caps</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, Hero calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (21 SB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls, SB calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (20.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP3 folds, CO calls, SB calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">CO caps</font>, SB calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

River: (36.50 BB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero folds, CO calls, SB calls.

Final Pot: 39.50 BB

[NDHand]

Folding for one bet on the river in a 36BB pot just can't be right. You only need to have the best hand 3% of the time for this call to be profitable. I think AA will hold more than 3% of the time here. Maybe not much but still

[Jake (The Snake)]

You should be b*tch slapped for folding that river.

1/2 belong in micros.

You belong in micros.

Take a visit.

[imported_CaseClosed326]

[ QUOTE ]
River: (36.50 BB) K (4 players)
SB checks, MP1 bets, Hero folds , CO calls, SB calls.


[/ QUOTE ]

No excuse. You MUST call this river if you called the entire way down. Besides that, maybe you can fold to the cap on the turn, but the post is massive at that point and would be a bad idea. So I guess you are stuck.

If you won, all those people in that hand go on your buddy list.

[mantasm]

Fact: You can't win if you fold. NEVER FOLD !!

[damaniac]

Raising the turn is fine. SB and MP1 are the ones who showed aggression, and they are continuing to show it, so big pp's. If one of them has JJ on the turn then you're screwed, but there's no reason they can't have QQ/KK/the other AA. I do like just calling the 3-bet, however, since QQ and KK should be slowing down here. By the river, yeah, it doesn't look good, but I really can't fold getting 37.5:1 (and 39.5:1 with all the callers). Do you have reads?

[kcluu16]

Understood, I should have called the one bet on the river. After about 100 hands, I knew that CO was loose but solid. I believe his capping the turn meant for sure a set or straight. The reason for not calling the river bet was that I thought I was going to be trapped between MP1 and CO.

SB had QQ
MP1 had JJ
CO had 8,10 for a straight

[jjacky]

[ QUOTE ]
Understood, I should have called the one bet on the river. After about 100 hands, I knew that CO was loose but solid. I believe his capping the turn meant for sure a set or straight. The reason for not calling the river bet was that I thought I was going to be trapped between MP1 and CO.

SB had QQ
MP1 had JJ
CO had 8,10 for a straight

[/ QUOTE ]

the CO definitely deserves a spot in your buddy list!

i had a hand recently at 2/4 party with a guy who capped the betting pre flop, on the flop and raised me on the turn and river. i was holding AA, he had A6 unimproved! that`s why i don`t like to fold AA against sucker.

[mtdoak]

Do NOT fold for one bet on that river.

[imported_PP123]

Why did you raise the flop? You can't protect your hand on the flop when it's capped 5-ways preflop. The pot is too big.

When you raised MP1's flop bet the players behind you get 12-to-1 for a call, making them correct to call with overcards only. Your best spot to protect your hand is on the turn. Notice that the most likely turn bettor, MP1, is on your immediately right. If he bets out on the turn again you will get the opportunity to raise and face the field with 2BB. That will protect your hand, a flop bet won't.

[jjacky]

[ QUOTE ]
Why did you raise the flop? You can't protect your hand on the flop when it's capped 5-ways preflop. The pot is too big.

When you raised MP1's flop bet the players behind you get 12-to-1 for a call, making them correct to call with overcards only. Your best spot to protect your hand is on the turn. Notice that the most likely turn bettor, MP1, is on your immediately right. If he bets out on the turn again you will get the opportunity to raise and face the field with 2BB. That will protect your hand, a flop bet won't.

[/ QUOTE ]

there won`t be many people holding overcards to the aces...
i think it would have been a mistake not to raise the flop. it`s impossible to push any reasonable draw out. other hands like poket pairs and unpaired highcards don`t have the odds to call correctly anyway.

there are two reasonable lines imo: fold to the cap on the turn or call the turn AND the river. preflop and flop is fine.

[imported_PP123]

[ QUOTE ]
there won`t be many people holding overcards to the aces...

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with you on that one /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

The only draws a flop raise knocks out are the draws you already have badly beaten, like pocket pairs. Draws with more than four outs will call you no matter how many bets you put in on the flop. Strong draws, like OESD, will also call you on the turn no matter how much you raises. You can do nothing to knock them out, they will call you anyway. All you can do are just hope they miss. Your main target in this hand is instead someone with a gutshot or a pair. They are correct to call two SBs on the flop but not two BBs on the turn (middle/bottom pair will be correct to call two BBs on the turn too if they knew what you had, but they will often missread your hand and fold anyway).

So the best strategy in this hand is IMO to just call on the flop, planning to raise the turn. If you don't understand I think you should reread SSH.

[mosta]

given the flop action, when MP1 leads into you that's a bad sign. call and hope to showdown for 2 bets total. if the turn comes back to you 3-bet you can fold.

[Rah]

[ QUOTE ]
Why did you raise the flop? You can't protect your hand on the flop when it's capped 5-ways preflop. The pot is too big.

When you raised MP1's flop bet the players behind you get 12-to-1 for a call, making them correct to call with overcards only. Your best spot to protect your hand is on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

He won't be able to protect his hand on the flop or on the turn. Noone with any chance of winning will fold this and they shouldn't. Waiting for the turn to raise is wrong; best thing to do is to shovel in bets while he's ahead.

[Rah]

[ QUOTE ]

The only draws a flop raise knocks out are the draws you already have badly beaten, like pocket pairs. Draws with more than four outs will call you no matter how many bets you put in on the flop. Strong draws, like OESD, will also call you on the turn no matter how much you raises. You can do nothing to knock them out, they will call you anyway. All you can do are just hope they miss. Your main target in this hand is instead someone with a gutshot or a pair. They are correct to call two SBs on the flop but not two BBs on the turn (middle/bottom pair will be correct to call two BBs on the turn too if they knew what you had, but they will often missread your hand and fold anyway).

So the best strategy in this hand is IMO to just call on the flop, planning to raise the turn. If you don't understand I think you should reread SSH.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are being too narrow-minded. There are more concepts in SSH than waiting for the turn to raise. Raising for pot equity is just as important (given the pf action, there's no way that you will successfully be able to apply the turn raise concept).

[thejameser]

[ QUOTE ]
Do NOT fold for one bet on that river.

[/ QUOTE ]
EVER IN A POT THAT BIG.

[crunchy1]

Interesting Hand - especially the river. I'm having a tough time with this.

I don't really think the river fold is as horrible as everyone seems so quick to point out. CO cold-called-two/capped the turn. I think it's pretty obvious you're beat here. I'm fine with seeing a showdown on the river for 1BB but, you're not closing the action and MP1 is betting into you and the turn capper?!? I don't think a fold here is as bad as everyone is saying.

OTOH, I do agree with the mantra that you should never fold for 1BB in a large pot.

Personally I think I'm just calling down on the turn. You got check/3-bet on the flop, capped it like you probably should have and then the flop bettor lead into you again on the turn. Instead of opening yourself up to further aggression you might be best to just call down. It may come back to you for another 2-3BBs on the turn and would make folding at that point a much more reasonable line. Or, maybe you get to showdown for only 2BBs.

[jjacky]

you propose i should reread SSHE if i disagree with you? there is nothing wrong with rereading SSHE, but your condition is dumb.

to point it out again: i don't see any chance to protect the hand. that's why i just want to push my pot equity edge as hard as possible.

[DrewOnTilt]

[ QUOTE ]
The reason for not calling the river bet was that I thought I was going to be trapped between MP1 and CO.


[/ QUOTE ]

There's an easy solution to that. Call the river bet and fold to a raise.

Do not EVER fold for a single bet in a pot of this size, unless you had 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif3 /images/graemlins/club.gif in the big blind and missed a draw (okay, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but I hope you get the picture by now).

[imported_PP123]

[ QUOTE ]
you propose i should reread SSHE if i disagree with you? there is nothing wrong with rereading SSHE, but your condition is dumb.


[/ QUOTE ]
I apologize for my previous post. I didn't mean to offend you. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[ QUOTE ]
to point it out again: i don't see any chance to protect the hand. that's why i just want to push my pot equity edge as hard as possible.

[/ QUOTE ]
I understand the argument about pushing your edge (and it's a good one!), but I think you actually can protect your hand.

When MP1 bets out on the flop there are 22 SBs in the pot. If you raise, the people behind you will get 12-to-1 to call. That doesn't protect your hand but, yes, you push your edge. On the other hand, if you just calls MP1's flop bet and a few people behind come along and don't raise, there will be about 26 SBs or 13 BBs in the pot. Then on the turn if MP1 bets out again, you can raise and face the field with 2 BBs. They will get about 8-to-1 for a call, not enough to call profitable with a gutshot. A turn raise also has the benefit that people will misread your hand. You overrepresent your hand by raising and people may fold weak draws they should have called with if they knew what you had.

Of course, this plan of waiting until the turn to show your muscles will be ruined if someone raises behind on the flop. Then you will have to reevaluate the new situation and decide what to do. But my initial plan would be to wait to the turn.

Unfortunately (for me /images/graemlins/frown.gif), after reading the other responses it seems as I am the only one with this opinion.

[terrapin314]

[ QUOTE ]
Do NOT fold for one bet on that river.

[/ QUOTE ]