AP 10/20 QQ hand & MLHP Question 23.6

[luvrhino]

I feel uncomfortable the way i played this hand, though i can't explain why. It seems right, but feels wrong, if that makes sense. The game was fairly loose and aggressive:

Absolute Poker 10/20 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Luvrhino is CO with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif. UTG posts a blind of $10.
UTG (poster) checks, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Luvrhino 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (12.50 SB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Luvrhino bets</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, MP2 calls.

Having all 3 players call to a rainbow Flop, 2 3-gaps, and a K did not make me feel too secure with my QQ. I probably would have checked the River with almost any non-Q:

Turn: (8.25 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, MP2 checks, Luvrhino checks.

River: (8.25 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG calls, MP2 folds, Luvrhino calls.

Final Pot: 11.25 BB

Given that i 3-bet pre-flop, i'm 85-90% sure i'm beaten after BB leads into 3 players and a call, which means i thought it worth a crying call...

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
BB has 4s As (high card, ace). &lt;--- Yeah, i wrote an emphatic note for this player for future reference.
UTG has Td Jc (one pair, tens).
Luvrhino has Qs Qh (one pair, queens).
Outcome: Luvrhino wins 11.25 BB. </font>

----

My other question concerns Question 6 in Chapter 23 of Ciaffone's &amp; Brier's excellent Middle Limit Holdem Poker:

A $10-$20 game. You are BB holding K /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Early player limps and a MP raises. CO calls, You, and limper call -&gt; 4 players, $85 in pot.

Flop K /images/graemlins/heart.gif7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

You bet, early player folds, MP raises, and CO folds. You call -&gt; $125 pot, 2 players.

Turn is a T /images/graemlins/club.gif

You check and your opponent bets. What do you do?

They say to fold because of the kicker problems, discussing the paucity of outs vs. AA (5), AK/KQ (3), or KK (0). Now, if i knew that my opp was a mouse, i very well might fold. However, getting better than 4-to-1 (assuming Turn &amp; River i check and call) to make him prove he can beat KJ (not having AQ, AJ, pocket pair below kings, etc) seems to be worth it. Obviously, if i'm playing in a game like the above, i should call him down, but i would think that it should be called down for most 10/20 games.

Am i off-base here?

[flawless_victory]

in the first hand, go ahead and bet the turn... you still have the best hand a huge percentage of the time... if you get CRed, youll have to figure out whether to continue...
in the C&amp;R hand... theie advice is awful for agg midlimit internet games... threebet the flop, lead turn, blahblah. that fold would be awful in most games in 05...

[Dazarath]

I think (in hand 1) I'd take one of 2 lines:
1. Bet the turn and fold to a raise, and then check behind for a free showdown... or
2. Check behind on the turn and call if 1 person bets, but not overcall. I guess I don't feel too comfortable overcalling with 3 people calling the flop bet and a hand worse than top pair, but I'd like to hear other people's ideas.

For hand 2, I think it's very opponent-dependent. I don't play 10/20, but at the 15/30 tables, I've seen a lot of maniacs play AQ-AT, QQ-JJ this way. I guess it depends if you want to pay 2 more BBs to see if you have him beat. I would also take into consideration whether or not he was MP1/2/3. I would call down (personally) if it was MP3.

This is a little different than what you were asking, but I'm just curious about what people think. If whenever I flop TPGK, I'm just going to assume that I'm outkicked and fold to a raise, I would just fold preflop. Does anyone else agree? I feel that if I'm going to call with a hand like KJo, which only has high card power (and a little bit of a straight possibility), I should really continue when I get a good flop like this.

[MattiasL]

The hand:
Since you are planning to (?) overcall the river UI, I think betting the turn for a free showdown would be good. OTOH - if you are playing against people that are bluffing ace high on the river, checking behind might actually be higher EV.

The MLHP hand:
IMHO, this book is written assuming much more tight/passive opponents than what you normally see today. So the book answers have to be adjusted.
How I would play this specific hand is opponent dependent, but I would need a fairly solid read to just give up this hand on the turn. I would probably not bet out the turn to charge the flush and gutshots, since a raise from a worse hand is too likely (free showdown plays and (semi)bluffs). So I would very often just call down, but I think that many 2+2:ers would say this is too passive (right?).

[luvrhino]

The more i think of it, the more i like my check on the Turn, calling up to one bet on the River. I really do think i have to be beat here, given that everyone called the Flop when there were no flush draws and i hold two queens that would be likely held by someone calling with a straight draw worth 3 bets pre-flop (e.g. QJ, AQ).

If i bet the Turn and am check-raised, i think i have to dump the hand given that my outs of a Q or J are rather dirty. Also, what would i do if i bet the Turn, get called in a couple places, and then get lead to on the River? Would i release or call one bet to make sure he isn't betting with something like A/images/graemlins/heart.gifJ/images/graemlins/heart.gif or J/images/graemlins/heart.gifT/images/graemlins/heart.gif? If i call and lose, this costs me an extra bet vs. checking the Turn. Another way i'm saving a bet by checking is in the strong possibility that the River is bet and raised before reaching me, which would allow me to fold if unimproved.

While i minimize my liability by checking, at the time i didn't think i was affecting my chances of winning the pot. I reckoned the risk of me being in the lead and giving away the winning free card on the River to an opponent who would have folded were balanced by the chance of me being behind on the Turn and hitting the J i need to likely win or split.

Finally, there's the consideration the Turn check inducing bluffs and/or people calling with worse hands on the River that would have folded to a Turn bet...though i confess that benefit didn't occur to me until after the hand.

All that being said, if i only had two opponents or i wasn't last to act, i would still bet the Turn in most situations.

I am still open to other thoughts on the subject, however, since they help me understand these kinds of situations better.

[ QUOTE ]
If whenever I flop TPGK, I'm just going to assume that I'm outkicked and fold to a raise, I would just fold preflop. Does anyone else agree? I feel that if I'm going to call with a hand like KJo, which only has high card power (and a little bit of a straight possibility), I should really continue when I get a good flop like this.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree to an extent, though it depends on how much action there is. In the MLHP situation, if after leading, the Flop is 3-bet back to me, i fold. Similarly, depending on my reads of the players, i might fold on the Flop or Turn if there were other players aside from the pre-flop raiser along for the ride, especially if there wasn't a flush or likely straight draw on the board.

However, as i said in my initial post, with a hand like KJo vs. only the pre-flop raiser, i'm going to call him down with top pair even if i suspect i'm probably beat.

[DcifrThs]

checking the turn in hand 1 has got to be close to betting given the flop board and calls. but there is 100% NO WAY you should be folding that turn to a bet or fold if you bet and are checkraised. thats just wrong. (also, your jack outs are not dirty, 3 of them give you the virtual nuts and 1 of them gives you the freakin damn close to virtual nuts because somebody MIGHT have a bd flush draw.

in hand 2 they are also wrong and folding for a bet here in the games we all play in is very costly. i follow through on the turn there a lot w/ AQhh and sometimes on teh river depending on teh opponent.

-Barron

[luvrhino]

[ QUOTE ]
(also, your jack outs are not dirty, 3 of them give you the virtual nuts and 1 of them gives you the freakin damn close to virtual nuts because somebody MIGHT have a bd flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]
Aside from the backdoor flush draw, a player could have AQ. Since i had the Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, it's not very likely that someone would check-raise or cold-call with AQ, though someone could call my bet with that gutshot and then call the check-raiser. If not, a J is still likely a split pot with someone else with a Q, which decreases that out's value. Given these considerations, i'd count a jack as only 1.5-3 outs, depending on the number of opponents still in when the betting gets back to me.

I think the majority of the time i'm folding to a check-raise on the Turn unless it's one opponent and i know him to be aggressive. For example, i'd call down the guy who held A4 in that last hand had he check-raised.