Calling an all in in level 1 with JJ...

[Karak567]

Original pusher is tilting. He is NOT pushing any decent hand 95 % of the time. He made a bonehead move the board before this and lost most of his chips.

Should I have A) folded
b) limped
or c) come overtop to isolate

***** Hand History for Game 2228675005 *****
NL Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:13217458 Level:1 Blinds(10/15) - Saturday, June 18, 23:44:03 EDT 2005
Table Table 12716 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: familymanof5 ( $720 )
Seat 2: Loose_N_Luky ( $400 )
Seat 4: ol9ball ( $2060 )
Seat 5: swear2bob ( $800 )
Seat 6: DrDiablo2005 ( $145 )
Seat 7: wesley995 ( $730 )
Seat 8: jkras79 ( $1470 )
Seat 9: Hero ( $850 )
Seat 10: highstakes71 ( $825 )
Trny:13217458 Level:1
Blinds(10/15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ Jh Jc ]
DrDiablo2005 is all-In [145]
wesley995 folds.
jkras79 folds.
Hero ???

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

definitely call, you have a great hand and it will only cost you $145. Folding seems wrong, although pushing to isolate could be correct, but I hate JJ and if flop is not favorable you can still get away from hand by just calling...

[adanthar]

Push to isolate.

[octaveshift]

[ QUOTE ]
Push to isolate.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Sponger15SB]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Push to isolate.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Ugh, I think this is horrible.

[KramerTM]

Definitely push to isolate. Don't give a guy with KJ or AT a reason to outflop you.

BTW, are you back to your winning ways at the 33s? Hope you recovered from the variance at the 55s.

Good luck at the tables.

[octaveshift]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Push to isolate.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Ugh, I think this is horrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK. This is the part you tell us why.

[Karak567]

[ QUOTE ]
Definitely push to isolate. Don't give a guy with KJ or AT a reason to outflop you.

BTW, are you back to your winning ways at the 33s? Hope you recovered from the variance at the 55s.

Good luck at the tables.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh yeah I sure am.

I am on a heater straight outta Florida for the last two days.

Interesting comments on the JJ...

[Myst]

If you are going to play this, push all in. You dont want some joker calling with A7. Calling just allows those players to limp behind you.

If you had AA, then you would flat call for the reasons above.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
You dont want some joker calling with A7.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand this type of comment. I see it a lot.

Of course I want to play against A7 with JJ.

I don't want AQ or AK to call.

[Myst]

The pot is already big enough where taking it down right now is more beneficial than a 70/30.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
The pot is already big enough where taking it down right now is more beneficial than a 70/30.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll take 70/30 all day everyday save for certain specific bubble situations.

[microbet]

You want A7 to call your push or even something less than a push, but do you want them to call after you call?

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
but do you want them to call after you call?

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh?

Yes.

[Myst]

The problem is the uncertainty of the situation. You DONT KNOW if they have A7. If they have position, and the flop comes KQ4, then you are scrwed :/

[KramerTM]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Quote:
You dont want some joker calling with A7.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand this type of comment. I see it a lot.

Of course I want to play against A7 with JJ.

I don't want AQ or AK to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't want to give an A7 the right price to call this bet, which you may be doing by flat calling. Additionally, even if you aren't giving him the right price, you still may not want him in there according to Sklansky, because in a tournament you are willing to surrender slightly positive EV situations for onces with lower variance.

[Myst]

[ QUOTE ]

Because in a tournament you are willing to surrender slightly positive EV situations for onces with lower variance.

[/ QUOTE ]

That too /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[microbet]

It's not just 70/30 vs. the A7 if you just call and he calls behind. What are your implied odds and what are his implied odd? I think he fairs better in the implied department than you do. Depends on the third guys cards, but the A7 is probably about 27% to win and with 3 of you in there he is almost getting odds. Considering the lower value (? - block theory - ?) of the additional chips you would win if he calls and you win, I don't think you want him to call if you just call. Make sure he is making a mistake when he calls by raising.

The case is much stronger for AK, AQ or KQ.

Hope this isn't too rambling or non-sensical, I'm playing at the same time as posting.

[lastchance]

I think the point microbet's making is that you don't know when your opponent flopped a higher pair, and they know when they have. You need to push now to get rid of this dilemma.

[microbet]

Not necessarily about variance. It could easily be +cEV, but not +$EV.

[microbet]

That too. A hand with a few outs calling behind would be marginally +cEV, maybe not +$EV, you would possibly be missing the opportunity to have them make a big mistake by calling a raise, and you leave yourself in a possibly exploitable position.

[Karak567]

Here is what actually happened:

I just called, I didn't raise.

I had TWO callers behind me.

Flop came AK2.

check check check

Turn is a 4

At this point I considered betting at it, but thought better due to a possible AA, KK or AK (it was a huge PF raise after all) check check check

River is a 9

check check check

One of the two callers shows QK and takes down the pot.

Original pusher had JT, second caller had 33.

[Dhani]

Call if players behind are aggressive in ny manner. Wait for th flop bet out heavy if it favors you

[Dhani]

sorry about typos

[microbet]

Not to be results oriented and it depends on the positions of the players that called after you, but, if KQ could have seen everyone's hand, did they make a mistake by calling?

I don't have time to think about it now. Must get my 3 year old back to sleep.

[Slim Pickens]

After thinking about it for a while, I decided to play the hand just as you did. I hate going all-in with jacks early on, even if you are isolating what could very well be dead chips. As far as implied odds, sure, there's a disadvantage to you on an overcard flop not knowing if you're beat, but don't forget about the HUGE implied odds your overpair is getting on some fish's A9o on a nine-high flop. You check-raise all-in and of course they call not wanting to give up. Nothing beats top pair, top kicker, right? Case dismissed. Anyway, nice play.

SlimP

[jcm4ccc]

[ QUOTE ]


I had TWO callers behind me.

Flop came AK2.

check check check

Turn is a 4

At this point I considered betting at it, but thought better due to a possible AA, KK or AK (it was a huge PF raise after all) check check check

[/ QUOTE ]

You have JJ, the flop comes with AK, there are 2 other callers, and you think you have the better hand on the turn? This seems like a leak. Much, much, more likely than AA, KK, or AK is a just a regular A or K, with the caller afraid to bet the flop but not afraid to call your bet (this is a mistake on the caller's part, of course). This is even more true given the preflop action. I think people will often call a short-stack's all-in push with less than premium hands (Ace or King with poor kicker).

It's highly likely that you are behind, and it's highly likely that, if you bet the turn, you will not get 2 folds. In Party Poker, it's usually a mistake to think that you can get top pair to fold, even if you suspect that top pair has a lousy kicker.

[Myst]

[ QUOTE ]
In Party Poker, it's usually a mistake to think that you can get top pair to fold, even if you suspect that top pair has a lousy kicker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Amen to that, brotha.

[Newt_Buggs]

I think that the probability that you have the best hand at table right here is so high that it dictates pushing to isolate. Besides, don't be shocked to still get called by AJ and TT sometimes.

I stopped being lazy and just did the math, JJ against 5 random hands (the people left to act) will only face QQ+ 7.1% of the time.

[Myst]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that the probability that you have the best hand at table right here is so high that it dictates pushing to isolate. Besides, don't be shocked to still get called by AJ and TT sometimes.

I stopped being lazy and just did the math, JJ against 5 random hands (the people left to act) will only face QQ+ 7.1% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is there a calculator online that lets you do calculations like that? Or did you just use the ol' pen and paper?

[New York Jet]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You dont want some joker calling with A7.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand this type of comment. I see it a lot.

Of course I want to play against A7 with JJ.

I don't want AQ or AK to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

With JJ, the flop will come with at least one overcard and no J 50% of the time. I agree that you do want A7 to call you, but only after you raise all-in. If you call, 50% of the time, you will be unsure if your hand is good post flop.

I disagree on NOT wanting AQ or AK to call. If you reraise all-in, you will have 45% of the money in as a 55% favorite.

[octaveshift]

[ QUOTE ]

One of the two callers shows QK and takes down the pot.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly why I push. Let Mr. KQ decide if he wants to play for all his chips PF.

[John Hurst]

After reading the posts and with your read that the original raiser was steaming I think pushing is the correct decision. Opportunity to pick up chips exceeds the risk of running into QQ or better.

[Karak567]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


I had TWO callers behind me.

Flop came AK2.

check check check

Turn is a 4

At this point I considered betting at it, but thought better due to a possible AA, KK or AK (it was a huge PF raise after all) check check check

[/ QUOTE ]

You have JJ, the flop comes with AK, there are 2 other callers, and you think you have the better hand on the turn? This seems like a leak. Much, much, more likely than AA, KK, or AK is a just a regular A or K, with the caller afraid to bet the flop but not afraid to call your bet (this is a mistake on the caller's part, of course). This is even more true given the preflop action. I think people will often call a short-stack's all-in push with less than premium hands (Ace or King with poor kicker).

It's highly likely that you are behind, and it's highly likely that, if you bet the turn, you will not get 2 folds. In Party Poker, it's usually a mistake to think that you can get top pair to fold, even if you suspect that top pair has a lousy kicker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which is exactly why I didn't bet it...

I just said the thought crossed my mind, that's all.

[gildwulf]

So say you push and some guy calls with QQ, KK, AA, AK...what was a good play from a good read turns into a horrible play from a good read for all your chips. 150 chips at lvl 1 is a blindsteal later on...this is NOT worth the risk.

[microbet]

You're very close to the right answer if you just go 15/221. (odds of anyone having any particular pocket are 1/221 (222? 220? it's about right))

[RicktheRuler]

[ QUOTE ]
Calling just allows those players to limp behind you.


[/ QUOTE ]

How so? The guy went all in for 145.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Push to isolate.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

[RicktheRuler]

[ QUOTE ]
Let Mr. KQ decide if he wants to play for all his chips PF.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem I have with the push here is that occasionally someone picks up a monster or AK and is happy to get all there money in--unfortunately there is no chance to get away from the hooks. Also, I have seen more than enough players willing to "gamble" with AQo/s AKo/s KQs--especially with a sizeable pot in front of them--I really don't want to be flipping coins this early in the game.

Given, I am still becoming accustomed to some of the differences with SnGs and ring games. Am I way off here?

Could someone point me in the right direction if I am?

[microbet]

You need to be willing to bet large and make people fold at some point. You have huge FE over the remaining opponents and there is money in the pot. It doesn't matter that only so much time has gone by in the tournament. You make big moves later on because the blinds are bigger and there is something in the pot worth taking a risk for. If you could spread out these moves you will be better off because you will preserve your image.

[Isura]

I think calling is better (atleast at the lower limits I play). What hands are the players behind calling for 150 (10x BB) that don't call a push. Only with AQ, KQ we don't really want a call. We'll get loose calls from KTs, QJs, and smaller pocket pairs. Players will invest 150 at this stage with these hands and happily fold the flop when 2+ overcards come or they don't pick up a decend draw. These hands (suited broadways, smaller pairs) will fold to your push, which is something that we really don't want. This means we can usually bet the flop strong when no K or A comes, and evaluate and get from it if the flop is ugly for us. What am I missing. Is reducing variance by pusing really that much more superior to extracting the most value with JJ in this situation?