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mr pink

06-18-2005, 09:41 PM

a good friend of mine played this hand. i tried to explain to him that his fold was pretty awful and that it will lose money for him long term, regardless of how the river came down.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif,
2 folds, MP1 calls, Hero calls, CO calls, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
SB checks, BB bets, MP1 calls, Hero calls, CO raises, SB 3-bets, BB calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (9 BB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
SB bets, BB calls, Hero folds, CO raises, SB calls, BB calls.

River: (15 BB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, CO bets, SB calls, BB calls.

Final Pot: 18 BB

as a side note, i was the CO in this hand with ATo, i think i played it pretty standardly. comments on all streets i played are welcome. but mainly, i'd like for some other people to bang it into my friend's head that he played this hand like a goof and should start reading/studying 2+2 if he's gonna play for real money.

come on micro duders, let him have it. and explain to him why it sucks.

big up - jeff

aK13

06-18-2005, 09:45 PM

He's playing 5/10 and making this fold?

Wow...

I also muck preflop.

This is a very standard OESD chase. The /images/graemlins/diamond.gif are not clean, but even if you discount them completely, you still have odds to chase for a 6 outer.

mr pink

06-18-2005, 10:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
He's playing 5/10 and making this fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah.

[ QUOTE ]
This is a very standard OESD chase. The are not clean, but even if you discount them completely, you still have odds to chase for a 6 outer.

[/ QUOTE ]

his exact words were: "why should i chase when it's clear the 2 of you are on aces? and "so i should spend 20 bucks to see the river?" also note, that he didn't know i was going to raise so he was getting 10:1 immediate odds to chase approx. 7 outs.

topspin

06-18-2005, 10:07 PM

Does ATo stop being a standard raise in the CO at 5/10 or something? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

aK13

06-18-2005, 10:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He's playing 5/10 and making this fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah.

[ QUOTE ]
This is a very standard OESD chase. The are not clean, but even if you discount them completely, you still have odds to chase for a 6 outer.

[/ QUOTE ]

his exact words were: "why should i chase when it's clear the 2 of you are on aces? and "so i should spend 20 bucks to see the river?" also note, that he didn't know i was going to raise so he was getting 10:1 immediate odds to chase approx. 7 outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because if you chase, with odds like this, you will hit your straight often enough to make money and overcome all the times you chase and miss. This is a very basic expected value issue.

Aaron W.

06-18-2005, 10:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
a good friend of mine played this hand. i tried to explain to him that his fold was pretty awful and that it will lose money for him long term, regardless of how the river came down.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif,
2 folds, MP1 calls, Hero calls, CO calls, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
SB checks, BB bets, MP1 calls, Hero calls, CO raises, SB 3-bets, BB calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (9 BB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
SB bets, BB calls, Hero folds, CO raises, SB calls, BB calls.

River: (15 BB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, CO bets, SB calls, BB calls.

Final Pot: 18 BB

as a side note, i was the CO in this hand with ATo, i think i played it pretty standardly. comments on all streets i played are welcome. but mainly, i'd like for some other people to bang it into my friend's head that he played this hand like a goof and should start reading/studying 2+2 if he's gonna play for real money.

come on micro duders, let him have it. and explain to him why it sucks.

big up - jeff

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't use words. He sounds too stubborn to listen (based on the comments you attributed to him in another post). Just give him an object lesson.

Sit him down with a deck of cards and play a little game with him. Take his 87s, give him your A9o (or whatever you held in that hand), and put an ace on the side to represent SB's kicker. Deal out the board just as it was in this hand.

Then shuffle the rest of the cards and deal the river.

If you hit the straight, he gives you $15 ("15 BB") because you won the pot. If you miss, you give him $2 ("2 BB") because you chased and lost. Shuffle and repeat. Do this for an hour or until he understands. If he doesn't, at least he paid you for the time you spent trying to teach him.

Aaron W.

06-18-2005, 10:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
his exact words were: "why should i chase when it's clear the 2 of you are on aces? and "so i should spend 20 bucks to see the river?" also note, that he didn't know i was going to raise so he was getting 10:1 immediate odds to chase approx. 7 outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait... are you both playing online in the same room? No peeking! /images/graemlins/mad.gif

MightyKC7

06-18-2005, 11:01 PM

Thanks Aaron. I've read variations of the example/experiment you just described a few times before. For some reason this time it finally got through my thick skull and made perfect sense.
Wow. This reading stuff idea is cool. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

DerFleischmeister

06-18-2005, 11:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
"so i should spend 20 bucks to see the river?"

[/ QUOTE ]

This is telling me that your friend is looking at the game the wrong way. A BB is a BB, whether the monetary value is $0.04 or $60. Judging from the fact that he's thinking hard about the $20, he may be playing too high for either his bankroll, his comfort level, or both. He is obviously playing too high for his skill level, if nothing else.

mr pink

06-19-2005, 02:19 AM

we were playing in the same game, but we werent telling each other our hands. i wanna take as much cash off of him as he does off me, so there was no cheating involved if that's what you were getting at.

after the hand was over, i asked him what he had that he called 2 more bets on the flop with and he said 78... at which point i said " whaa???/"

aK13

06-19-2005, 02:27 AM

If you are eager to take his money, don't correct his play. He obviously wants to lose it to you.

Kumubou

06-19-2005, 02:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
after the hand was over, i asked him what he had that he called 2 more bets on the flop with and he said 78... at which point i said " whaa???/"

[/ QUOTE ]
It's an OESD (the ass end of one, though -- but a J would have him losing only to KQ and Q8, both of which seem unlikely) and a BDFD. What's so weird about that? (Well, since he folded for 1 BB in a bigger pot on the turn, that is odd. But he's missing that BDFD, so the 1.5 outs must have made the difference.)

-K

Kumubou

06-19-2005, 02:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If you are eager to take his money, don't correct his play. He obviously wants to lose it to you.

[/ QUOTE ]
This brings up a somewhat important (if completely off-topic) point -- where's the line? I have no one in meatspace to talk poker with because they either would not understand (or do not want to), or I can not trust them about it (because them giving me bad advice would be +EV for them; and conversely them giving me good advice would be -EV.)

(I also ran into the situtation with a group of people who would play videogames competetively at school, and they would start betting on games and stuff. Once money entered the equasion things soured quickly, as people had no incentive to help anyone and had a very real incentive to make them play worse. Not only did it stop being fun, it stopped being interesting and +EV, so I just stopped playing.)

-K

aK13

06-19-2005, 02:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you are eager to take his money, don't correct his play. He obviously wants to lose it to you.

[/ QUOTE ]
This brings up a somewhat important (if completely off-topic) point -- where's the line? I have no one in meatspace to talk poker with because they either would not understand (or do not want to), or I can not trust them about it (because them giving me bad advice would be +EV for them; and conversely them giving me good advice would be -EV.)

(I also ran into the situtation with a group of people who would play videogames competetively at school, and they would start betting on games and stuff. Once money entered the equasion things soured quickly, as people had no incentive to help anyone and had a very real incentive to make them play worse. Not only did it stop being fun, it stopped being interesting and +EV, so I just stopped playing.)

-K

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I'm not saying you want to screw your friends over by taking their money and teaching them to play poorly, but if they refuse to learn and improve from what you tell them, then I think you need to leave them be. For example, if you sit down at a table and said "if you want to improve your poker game, go read Small Stakes Hold 'em by David Sklansky and you will become a much better player". The information is out there, but whether they are willing to listen is up to them. If they play long enough and get better, they will learn the error of their ways, albeit at a significant price.

Aaron W.

06-19-2005, 03:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you are eager to take his money, don't correct his play. He obviously wants to lose it to you.

[/ QUOTE ]
This brings up a somewhat important (if completely off-topic) point -- where's the line? I have no one in meatspace to talk poker with because they either would not understand (or do not want to), or I can not trust them about it (because them giving me bad advice would be +EV for them; and conversely them giving me good advice would be -EV.)

[/ QUOTE ]

That line is for you and your friend to draw. Friendly competition isn't an oxymoron in poker, because you aren't directly taking his money because of all the other players. There's a scene in the middle of Rounders where they talk about that (something about spotting the fish). If you're good friends, offer your help. If he doesn't take it, then he doesn't take it and don't let it bother you. If he gives you bad advice, tell him so and explain why. And if he doesn't buy it, don't let it bother you.

In a sense, it's almost like Christian evangelism (NOT like the stupid posts that appeared here a short while ago, but in the good friend-to-friend way). You have knowledge of something that you think will help him. You offer it, but you can't make him take it. If he doesn't take it, you feel bad for him (because he's missing out), but you respect his decision. You continue to be friends and life goes on.

mr pink

06-19-2005, 11:17 AM

ATo is usually a limp for me in this game, unless i'm isolating a loose/weak limper.