My "move" on the bubble (?)

[rydazzle]

Sit and Go, 4 players left, blinds at 50/100

I am SB with about 1500. UTG has roughly the same, ~1500. UTG+1 and BB have 2-2.5K. I had been waiting for UTG to raise (since he was playing super tight now that we were down to 4 handed, I wanted to single him out) and re-raise him all-in with a mid/low pair (if I felt there was a pretty good chance he was on a couple high cards). Well, it happened: UTG raises to 200, UTG+1 folds, I (SB) am dealt T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif T /images/graemlins/heart.gif and go all in. I had been waiting for this move since I felt he wouldn't want to risk getting 4th place with 2 high cards, and I could collect his raise and the blinds. In addition, I am probably ahead if he calls. BB folds (duh) and UTG calls my all-in with A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif J /images/graemlins/spade.gif - he catches a J /images/graemlins/club.gif on the turn to put me in fourth.

Was this a bad move on the bubble?

[DasLeben]

[ QUOTE ]
I had been waiting for UTG to raise (since he was playing super tight now that we were down to 4 handed, I wanted to single him out) and re-raise him all-in with a mid/low pair (if I felt there was a pretty good chance he was on a couple high cards).

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

Your best bet here is to be the first one into the pot. Why are you waiting around to push against a tight player's raise with 15BB? I'm not saying that this is necessarily right or wrong, but I'd just like to hear your reasoning.

[dfscott]

If there's someone who's playing very tightly on the bubble, the last thing I want to do is get involved in a pot with them. I want to steal the crap out of their blinds and fold like crazy when they decide to open-raise a pot since I can bet it's a premium hand.

Don't go after someone just because you see a potential leak in their game. Your goal is to win the tourney, not to beat "leaky boy." The time you want to be playing this guy is when you're heads-up.

[tminus]

[ QUOTE ]
since he was playing super tight now that we were down to 4 handed, I wanted to single him out) and re-raise him all-in with a mid/low pair (if I felt there was a pretty good chance he was on a couple high cards).

[/ QUOTE ]

this doesnt make sense to me
i dont think a super-tight player with 15BB would do anything with a couple of high cards

[rydazzle]

My reasoning is that I am looking for a good place to steal since we are on the bubble, 2x BB looks to me like 2 high cards from this guy (I was correct, AJo) and I want to push it. From EV point of view, I was ahead and he sucked a J out on me. I was really hoping to get a fold from him, but put myself in a nice spot to double up...

I guess my underlying question is bubble play: when I am about even with 3rd/4th place chip stack, do I push/take 50/50's? or do I wait for others to get in confrontations?

[rydazzle]

?

he raised with AJo, a couple of high cards...and a weak bet at that, 2x BB...weak and tight. I figured my all-in had abetter chance of a fold than a call, and a call put me at >50% EV.

[HonestIago15]

I think the big problem is that your main consideration is whether or not you have the best hand here, not whether or not he'll fold. Even with the best hand here you don't want him calling you...

[rydazzle]

[ QUOTE ]
Even with the best hand here you don't want him calling you...

[/ QUOTE ]

what strategy does that equate to then on the bubble? If I dont want to get chips in the pot with the best hand, what do i want?

[Myst]

If anything, you dont want to get involved with a tight player when they raise. What do you exactly beat? (QK, AK, AQ, AJ, maybe AT).

I would have just flatcalled.

[lastchance]

You want to take t300+ in blinds every single round without showing your cards once. This is my goal on the bubble, to get through L6 with a healthy stack by stealing blinds. You never want to be called unless you have AA-QQ, maybe JJ-99, AK-AQ, assuming your opponents are playing a wide range (hint: not when tight player open raises).

The best bubble SNG player wins hands without having to see a flop.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
I had been waiting for UTG to raise (since he was playing super tight now that we were down to 4 handed, I wanted to single him out) and re-raise him all-in with a mid/ low pair (if I felt there was a pretty good chance he was on a couple high cards). Well, it happened: UTG raises to 200, UTG+1 folds, I (SB) am dealt T T and go all in. I had been waiting for this move since I felt he wouldn't want to risk getting 4th place with 2 high cards , and I could collect his raise and the blinds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Like everyone else said, I don't see why your plan was to get into it with the tightest player at the table after he had already shown aggression.

That being said, if you were so sure he'd fold to a re-raise, why would it matter if you had a low PP? You could do it with any two cards. (Not a good plan, since he probably has a hand if he wakes up and raises all of a sudden, but that's not my point.)

Finally, I don't really see re-raising all-in with TT as a "move". Against all but the tightest of tight players, I would do this every time on the bubble.

The best plan on the bubble is to be the first aggressor, not waiting for someone else to show aggression and then reacting to it. You should be going after tighty when he is in the BB.

[RobGW]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't go after someone just because you see a potential leak in their game. Your goal is to win the tourney, not to beat "leaky boy." The time you want to be playing this guy is when you're heads-up.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is bass ackwards.

[2callzU]

[ QUOTE ]
he catches a J on the turn to put me in fourth

[/ QUOTE ] With his weak raise preflop you have a good opportunity to reraise him preflop to 2 or 2.5 times his raise. This is a good move for three reasons. One he might still fold. Two, he has to put you on a monster. And three, you will still have enough chips to make him fold after the flop without him feeling all-in pot committed. If you were going to play this hand-all in anyways you could have used the stop and go to some effect. You reraising him to a steady amount preflop would have sent major warning signals to this tight player. He would have been uber cautious on the flop if he called and you most definately would have taken it down with a push on the flop, and with decent profit. It's not a traditional stop and go in the sense that you actually have the best hand but it eliminates his suckout turn altogether. People will disagree with this move but I would disagree with them. The strategic element of it is far more effective than the predictable all in.

[rydazzle]

good advice, I thought of the stop and go here but wondered if I would have had the heart if an Ace or King came on the flop...I like the re-raise here as well, that would have been my normal play...

No one has really answered the main question about taking 50/50's on the bubble...but what I gather is that bubble play is about being first to open a pot to grab some blinds. However, with the shorter stacks these moves could prove costly if used too much...

[tminus]

ok..i see your point
your original post said he was 'super tight' not 'tight weak'
so it sounds like you had a great read on him
with this knowledge it looks like a great play move

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

I don't think it is good to push over someone's raise, especially when you know they are playing tight. He liked his hand enough to enter pot w/ raise and he is very likely to call. This is basically a 50/50 shot of you winning and barely +EV. I believe that proper bubble play you prefer to not be called so that liklyhood of getting called is low so that EV is much higher... but I am still learning correct bubble play myself...

[tminus]

[ QUOTE ]
No one has really answered the main question about taking 50/50's on the bubble...

[/ QUOTE ]

thats because playing a 50/50 hand on the bubble with a tight-wad is foolish...

you want to make a move when (1) foe is most likely to fold so you can take the blinds or (2) you hold a strong hand when foe is playing and want action

neither of these were true for your hand because the guy open RAISED indicating a hand equal to or better than your TT