$22s Curse of the calling station.

[Freudian]

Sometimes you run into a player with a very low preflop raise (0-2%). And sometimes I just run straight into the wall. Like this hand. Is there any way I won't lose all my chips here based on his extremely low preflop raise?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG (t800)
Hero (t785)
UTG+2 (t785)
MP1 (t770)
MP2 (t875)
MP3 (t645)
CO (t800)
Button (t600)
SB (t785)
BB (t1155)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t65</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls t65, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, BB calls t50.

Flop: (t202.50) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets t15</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t200</font>, MP1 calls t200, BB calls t185.

Turn: (t802.50) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero pushes 620</font>, MP1 calls 605. BB fold.

River: (t2027.50) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: t802.50

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero has Qh Qc (two pair, queens and fives).
MP1 has Ac Ad (two pair, aces and fives).
Outcome: MP1 wins t2027.50. </font>

[lastchance]

You know the answer. (it's no way in hell).

JJ comes up, AT-8T will pay you off, a bunch of suited connectors will pay you off, maybe even a seven...

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]
You know the answer. (it's no way in hell).

JJ comes up, AT-8T will pay you off, a bunch of suited connectors will pay you off, maybe even a seven...

[/ QUOTE ]

Which is fine if it didn't happen so often at the lower limits. It happens to me almost daily that I run into players calling all the way with AA/KK/QQ/top two pair etc. Surely they must have some characteristics that helps identify them (the extremely low PFR, perhaps post flop aggression but I don't think that stat is useful in SnGs).

[Karak567]

If you are going to start laying down big overpairs in low buy-in games like the 22s because you are afraid of bigger overpairs... your ROI is going to hurt for it.

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are going to start laying down big overpairs in low buy-in games like the 22s because you are afraid of bigger overpairs... your ROI is going to hurt for it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not if I do it only when I am behind. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Matt R.]

This is frustrating as hell isn't it? I moved down to the $11's to rebuild my bankroll when my internet connection crapped out (and I lost almost a grand in limit hold'em, but we won't talk about that), and I cannot adjust. People limp with every hand under the sun, and if I'm semi-shortstacked and push with 1-2 limpers and a decent hand (PVS I think, or whatever you call it) I ALWAYS get called by just about anything. People open limp in LP with 22-AA, AK, AQ, (oh, and J4 offsuit), you name it. It's frustrating as hell because it's impossible to make reads. WHY DON'T YOU PEOPLE RAISE, YOU'RE [censored] UP MY GAME /images/graemlins/mad.gif.

[Karak567]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you are going to start laying down big overpairs in low buy-in games like the 22s because you are afraid of bigger overpairs... your ROI is going to hurt for it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not if I do it only when I am behind. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no way you can get a solid read enough in online poker at the 22s with an unknown opponent to know whether you are behind or not.

[Matt R.]

Just happened again. I've figured out that if they put ANY money in the pot, they've got a hand they will call any sized bet with, regardless of pot odds. Small bets post-flop = monsters unless you have a read. A limp preflop probably means something semi-decent, but that doesn't mean they'll fold. Don't push unless you want to get called. And be cautious about putting your whole stack at risk without close to the nuts.

Yes, I'm kind of steaming right now, but this actually isn't far from the truth.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
Small bets post-flop = monsters unless you have a read

[/ QUOTE ]

You cannot be serious about this. At the 11s and 22s, a small bet usually means, "My hand is weak, but I don't want to check. Please don't raise me."

Come on people. Way too much overanalysis here. This seems like another one of these ridiculous "these players are so bad that I can't beat them" posts. The 11s and 22s are filled with fish. If you can't beat them (over the long term - short term could be variance), the only possible reason is that you're not very good. Period.

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

This is just one of those hands that can kill you. Maybe by check/call on the turn/river you can save some chips. You need to ask why are they calling such large bets? Do they have a set or an over pair or are they drawing (hopefully the latter)?

[45suited]

I don't blame the OP for losing all his chips here. It's easy to say that he should have played it differently after seeing the result, but seriously, he's got queens on that board? I'm certainly not giving villain credit for aces here and I'm going broke as well. The fact that vilain calls the flop could mean a flush draw, AT, and probably worse (this is a 22, remember). Overanalyzing losing your chips with QQ on a T high board is just going to make you start seeing monsters under the bed, IMO.

[jon462]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Small bets post-flop = monsters unless you have a read

[/ QUOTE ]

You cannot be serious about this. At the 11s and 22s, a small bet usually means, "My hand is weak, but I don't want to check. Please don't raise me."

Come on people. Way too much overanalysis here. This seems like another one of these ridiculous "these players are so bad that I can't beat them" posts. The 11s and 22s are filled with fish. If you can't beat them (over the long term - short term could be variance), the only possible reason is that you're not very good. Period.

[/ QUOTE ]
spot on. if I raised preflop and someone minibets into me on the flop, im popping it up to 80% pot size or so 100% of the time, whether i hit the flop or not. if they call and minibet the turn im raising again 80% of the time - and at least 80% of the time they will let it go...


its frustrating tho, apparently the fish havent figured it out.. i try to mimic this sometimes when i have a monster (AA\KK or flopped set) with a weak post-oak bet .. and i get 3 callers to fold quite frequently lol.

[Freudian]

Im losing all my chips here every time. And I don't mind. Because 80% of similar situations I double up.

My point is that there are warning signs that it might (or more likely might not) be worth paying attention to. If the guy was ahead of me and raised to 65, I would definately pay attention since he has such a small raising range. Him calling my raise is an aggressive play coming from someone like that.

I think it is mostly sample bias on my part. When this happens I go "aha, the signs were there". But when I double up I don't even notice it was him in the hand.

[Matt R.]

I never said I couldn't beat them, so I'm not exactly sure where you got that from. I built pretty much all of my bankroll up at the $11's and $22's, and it was pretty easy. I'm simply talking about the frustration of not being able to get ANY reads from someone who only calls, calls, calls regardless of their hand strength. There's obviously a way to adjust, but it makes for pretty boring and uncreative poker.

And I think you read a little too much into my statement that small bets = monster at the $11's. It was mostly born out of frustration for what I've been seeing lately while trying to build my roll back up. However, I think it's pretty common for the weak passives at the $11's to bet a hand they like weakly, yet still be willing to call off their whole stack with it (they sure do like to pick off "bluffs"). And a very good portion of the time they are trying the whole "I'm weak, come over the top of me" with a really strong hand. It's pretty transparent, and I'm surprised you haven't seen it that much if you've played the lower levels.

[4T25Q85]

I hate those calling bastards! I kicked one of them straight in the balls once though

Party Poker Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind t300 (3 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB (t2737)
Hero (t1220)
Button (t4043)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (3 SB, t900) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, Button checks.

Turn: (1.50 BB, t900) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls, SB folds.

River: (3.50 BB, t2100) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="red"> Hero is all-in </font> [t620] , Button calls.

Final Pot: 4 BB (t2420)

results: villian shows KK, i show straight
__________^SUCKER!!!! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Freudian]

People like to get tricky with big hands in the lower limits. Both these were from my latest set in the $20+2. Disguise doesn't mean much when the flops hit someone else hard.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

CO (t1895)
Hero (t485)
SB (t1395)
BB (t1440)
UTG (t1750)
MP (t1035)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls t50, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls t50, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t200) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets t200</font>, CO folds, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to t400</font>, BB folds, UTG pushes all-in [t1500], SB calls [t970].

Turn: (t2890) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

River: (t2890) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: t2890

Results:
SB has 7h 2d (three of a kind, twos).
UTG has As Ah (two pair, aces and twos).
Outcome: SB wins t2890.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

CO (t1012)
Button (t490)
SB (t1465)
Hero (t655)
UTG (t890)
UTG+1 (t1840)
MP1 (t738)
MP2 (t910)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls t100, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, CO calls t100, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (t400) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets t250</font>, CO folds, SB folds, Hero pushes all-in [t655] , UTG calls t305.

Turn: (t1510) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

River: (t1510) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: t1510

Results:
Hero has 7h 8s (two pair, eights and sevens).
UTG has As Ac (one pair, aces).
Outcome: Hero wins t1510.

[Myst]

[ QUOTE ]
People like to get tricky with big hands in the lower limits.

[/ QUOTE ]

Happens @ the 50s and the $1000s too. The trick is not to get trapped when you do that limping b.s.

[45suited]

Sure, sometimes a weak bet means that they're trying to trap you to come over the top, but most of the time a weak bet is just that - a sign of a mediocre hand.

Also, their strategy of just calling down with a hand such as aces is a dangerous play as well. Their passive play allows us to catch two pair, flushes, straights, etc., so that's okay if they'd like to do that as well. The bottom line is that we benefit from their weak play.

I'm glad to hear that you're beating these games though. I read into your post that you weren't. Wasn't trying to offend you, I just was pointing out that in the long run, their mistakes are of course a great thing.

[4T25Q85]

"Results:
SB has 7h 2d (three of a kind, twos).
UTG has As Ah (two pair, aces and twos).
Outcome: SB wins t2890"

YES!!! thats f**king hilarious /images/graemlins/cool.gif
72o OWNZ JOO!