Learning from Entity

[NateDog]

No, not the 2+2 PLO8 game the other nite

Entity: "I know you have the boat"
Me: "pot it"
Entity: "So I'll pot it"

But this hand

Table is relatively tight, and much softer than I expected. First foray into 1/2 at Stars, as I spend most of my time getting my butt handed to me as Party/skins.

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero calls, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, SB calls, BB folds, UTG folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (4 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>

Comments?

[LoaferGee12]

Why not just bet the flop?

[silkyslim]

did u think the bet MP3 was just for position? then what cards were you looking for on the turn to gaybet? I'm still in straightforward mode, please explain

[kapw7]

I don't like it. But it's better than checking.
Bet the flop It's cheaper. And raise the UTG limper PF.

[Vote4Pedro]

What did you learn? I dont like anything about the way you played this hand. In the future, I'd bet PF, and lead the flop and go from there

[NateDog]

[ QUOTE ]
did u think the bet MP3 was just for position? then what cards were you looking for on the turn to gaybet? I'm still in straightforward mode, please explain

[/ QUOTE ]

MP3's bet smells like a position bet. The range of hand he would have limped here is large, and not many of them include and Ace. Sure Axs is possible, but as tight as this table was playing, I don't think he's limping that.

As for the gaybet, I'm betting any card that doesn't pair the board if checked to.

[silkyslim]

And wouldn't betting the flop get you more information for less money?

[NateDog]

[ QUOTE ]
And wouldn't betting the flop get you more information for less money?

[/ QUOTE ]

If I lead, and get called all the way around the table, what do I know?

Closing the action on the flop got me enough info to think I had the best hand.

[Jaran]

If you plan on continuing after the flop, this is the way to play it. NH

-Jaran

[macdaddy991]

If you are decently sure that he is making a position bet then I like the turn.

How would you have reacted if he had raised?

[NateDog]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are decently sure that he is making a position bet then I like the turn.

How would you have reacted if he had raised?

[/ QUOTE ]

turbo muck

[TomBrooks]

Grunching (as usual...)

PREFLOP: I have only about 4k 1/2 hands, but at most tables I've been on, I would raise 88 after only one limper and often isolate him. If I felt I didn't have a pretty good chance to isolate I would call though. Letting all those people into the hand pretty much tells me I'm going to have to muck to almost any bet into an overcard flop, especially an ace.

FLOP: Ace flops. Bad card. Now you got a problem. MP3 bets. Does he have the ace or is he betting because he's last to act and everyone else checked. I don't know. If you bet, will MP3 fold a weak ace? Reraise with any ace? (To which you can fold.) ...Or call you down with it? (which will probably cost you the most money.)

One strategy is to bet out the flop. Another is to muck to this bet.

TURN: A good card for you, but an ace will probably at least call you down. Fold to a raise.

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
MP3's bet smells like a position bet. The range of hand he would have limped here is large, and not many of them include and Ace. Sure Axs is possible, but as tight as this table was playing, I don't think he's limping that.

[/ QUOTE ]I Read the thread after responding to the OP.

On this kind of table I raise preflop, bet/fold the flop, bet/fold the turn, and probably bet/fold the river.

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And wouldn't betting the flop get you more information for less money?

[/ QUOTE ]If I lead, and get called all the way around the table, what do I know?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd say you know there are the following out there: A weak ace and/or a decent ace, and/or middle or bottom pair, and/or 45 or 56 for a gutshot, possibly suited for a backdoor flush draw, and/or another pair of 8s, and/or a slowplaying 33 or 77.

[ QUOTE ]
Closing the action on the flop got me enough info to think I had the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't see how you eliminated the possibility of a weak ace or a medium ace held by a passive player.

[NateDog]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
MP3's bet smells like a position bet. The range of hand he would have limped here is large, and not many of them include and Ace. Sure Axs is possible, but as tight as this table was playing, I don't think he's limping that.

[/ QUOTE ]I Read the thread after responding to the OP.

On this kind of table I raise preflop, bet/fold the flop, bet/fold the turn, and probably bet/fold the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

you got a TomBrooklyn handle?

[TomBrooks]

shhhhh... /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[NateDog]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And wouldn't betting the flop get you more information for less money?

[/ QUOTE ]If I lead, and get called all the way around the table, what do I know?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd say you know there are the following out there: A weak ace and/or a decent ace, and/or middle or bottom pair, and/or 45 or 56 for a gutshot, possibly suited for a backdoor flush draw, and/or another pair of 8s, and/or a slowplaying 33 or 77.

[ QUOTE ]
Closing the action on the flop got me enough info to think I had the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't see how you eliminated the possibility of a weak ace or a medium ace held by a passive player.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I lead the flop, and get raised by MP3, or c/r'd by one of the blinds, I'm drawing to 2 outs. Closing the action on the flop leads me to reason that the blinds are drawing, or have a pair smaller than mine. MP3's bet is most likely a position bet, ergo I have the best hand.

This table wouldn't fall into the typical passive category. Tight yes, aggressive marginally, but players had shown that they could be pushed off marginal hands. I wouldn't make this same play at a typical party .5/1 table.

[NateDog]

[ QUOTE ]
shhhhh... /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I sat with you a couple days ago. I believe I had aces full beat by quads while you were there, and no, it wasn't a BBJ table.

[TomBrooks]

Hi Nate. I haven't played on any of the BBJ tables. They start at 2/4 right? I've only started playing 1/2 and almost all on Party Skins lately. What's your handle?

[Deamon2]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
shhhhh... /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I sat with you a couple days ago. I believe I had aces full beat by quads while you were there, and no, it wasn't a BBJ table.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think they moved the BBJ up to quad 8's beat anyways

[NateDog]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Nate. I haven't played on any of the BBJ tables. They start at 2/4 right? I've only started playing 1/2 and almost all on Party Skins lately. What's your handle?

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't played the BBJ tables either, too much juice.

At party/skins I play under variations of foldx#. Stars handle is better though: foldfoldfold. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[SlantNGo]

Why? I think this is an easy flop bet since no one else has shown. If MP3 folds, you will be last to act on future streets, which is an added benefit (possible free showdown if you wanted).

[ QUOTE ]
If you plan on continuing after the flop, this is the way to play it. NH

-Jaran

[/ QUOTE ]

[Jaran]

From the op, I got the impression that MP3 would bet if checked to (if that is an incorrect assumption, then a bet on the flop would be a good play also). Because of this, the chance of the flop being checked through is slim. Our equity in the hand is going to change on the turn, so waiting for a safe card seems prudent. Also, if MP3 does raise, it's easy to get away from. If he has a weak A, he may just call down from a flop bet. Don't know if I'm making sense or not, but that's what I got from this hand.

-Jaran

[SCfuji]

4 opponents = dont like this play. can you link the exact entity post that motivated you for this play? i havent been reading a ton of 2+2

[DocMartin]

I have a question. If you are sure this is a position bet, and that you have the best hand... why not check/raise and then lead the turn?

[Vote4Pedro]

i agree

[NateDog]

[ QUOTE ]
I have a question. If you are sure this is a position bet, and that you have the best hand... why not check/raise and then lead the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

A c/r here is building a pot to tie people to, not protecting my weak hand. The turn card will determine if I make my move or not.

[NateDog]

[ QUOTE ]
i agree

[/ QUOTE ]

with?

[Vote4Pedro]

You botched this hand from the beginning, however, given the way you played it, his line is superior

[NateDog]

[ QUOTE ]
You botched this hand from the beginning, however, given the way you played it, his line is superior

[/ QUOTE ]

So you are advocating leading the flop with a pair just higher than middle pair, and an Ace on board? Barring that, you think a player should c/r this hand and trap the small blind, while risking a 3 bet?

Why not pay 1 sb to see how your hand improves/degrades on the turn?

[Aaron W.]

I think Entity would have raised preflop. I think he's also betting this flop almost all of the time.

Why did you check it?

[ QUOTE ]
If I lead the flop, and get raised by MP3, or c/r'd by one of the blinds, I'm drawing to 2 outs. Closing the action on the flop leads me to reason that the blinds are drawing, or have a pair smaller than mine. MP3's bet is most likely a position bet, ergo I have the best hand.

This table wouldn't fall into the typical passive category. Tight yes, aggressive marginally, but players had shown that they could be pushed off marginal hands. I wouldn't make this same play at a typical party .5/1 table.

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes absolutely no sense to me. Why are you worried about MP3 raising you? The disaster of giving KT a free chance to outdraw you exceeds your hypothetical raise and check-raise scenarios. There's no reason to assume MP3 is going to position bet this, anyway (at least nothing you've indicated to us).

I think you've got much more learning to do.

[Vote4Pedro]

c/r flop and lead turn...I dont think leading flop is bad though