Bad laydown preflop?

[Arm187r]

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 caps</font>, CO calls, Hero folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (18 SB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, CO calls.

Turn: (10 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, CO calls.

River: (12 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, BB calls.

Final Pot: 16 BB

Bad mistake to fold this preflop? This is probably a straight forward situation but I don't recall anything I've read covering this (Don't have SS yet). I folded because after the BB reraise and the cap I figured AA,KK, AK, AQ, or QQ are all possible capping hands and I'm in serious trouble. I had a problem similiar to this that I posted about but I had a pocket pair that time. This time seemed different enough for me to post about.
What kind of pot odds do I need to call preflop with this hand? Also I'm sure some people will say fold this when it was raised the first time. I'm just not good enough yet to fold it for a .75 of a SB

[xwillience]

good fold...too many times you will be dominated i think. if they were suited u may have a case for calling simply because the pot will be so huge but fold in this case

[sholvar]

This is a good fold!


These action before the flop highers the possibility, that anyone holds a hand like AQ, KK or AA.
If turn and river are some blank cards you will often lose against an FH Qs full of Aces.
IF the rivercards gives you a king you will often lose against a higher Full House (you only have Queens full and in many situations you will lose against Kings full and Aces full here) what is very costly.
And this is a good flop for your hand. In many other flopsituations your chances to win the pot is not so good, because unimproved you have no chance against QQ, KK and AA.

[Sinnister]

You shouldve laid the kq down in the sb against a raise.

[Dave G.]

Bad fold.

...fold the first time around instead. Your position sucks and your hand against a raise also sucks. Getting a 25% discount from the SB does not turn this into a call.

[Dave G.]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm just not good enough yet to fold it for a .75 of a SB

[/ QUOTE ]

Think to yourself, what sort of flop are you hoping for here? Are you happy when a K or Q hits? Sometimes you'll have the best hand and win a small pot. Other times you'll have a dominated hand and you'll pay off to a big pot.

The only flops you can be happy with this hand are flops like this one, or two pair, or an OESD or flopped straight. These don't happen anywhere near often enough to justify playing this hand for this price.

Also, you aren't paying .75 of an SB, you're paying 1.5 SB! That's quite a difference.

[caggin]

Good fold, but - as you know - you should've folded the first time.

[Arm187r]

Final Pot: 16 BB

Results in white below:
BB has 5h 5s (two pair, queens and fives).
CO has 4s 4h (full house, fours full of queens).
Outcome: CO wins 16 BB

I'm glad I folded I would've lost this hand had I called.
BUT I'm still not sure about folding for 3/4 of a bet in a multiway pot.
I know I'm gonna have to hit the flop hard or flop a big draw and that I have the worst position . I understand just flopping a pair here is dangerous. In fact isn't this the type of flop I'd want if it had only been raised preflop ONE time? I had no reads on the player since I hadn't been at the table long if that makes any difference one way or another. And with only one bet at me I'm not automatically putting him on AA,'s KK's, etc.
I'd definitely like to fix this in my play if its a leak in my play but I don't want to become weak-tight either.

Thanks a lot for all the advice guys

[sholvar]

[ QUOTE ]
Final Pot: 16 BB

Results in white below:
BB has 5h 5s (two pair, queens and fives).
CO has 4s 4h (full house, fours full of queens).
Outcome: CO wins 16 BB

I'm glad I folded I would've lost this hand had I called.
BUT I'm still not sure about folding for 3/4 of a bet in a multiway pot.
I know I'm gonna have to hit the flop hard or flop a big draw and that I have the worst position . I understand just flopping a pair here is dangerous. In fact isn't this the type of flop I'd want if it had only been raised preflop ONE time? I had no reads on the player since I hadn't been at the table long if that makes any difference one way or another. And with only one bet at me I'm not automatically putting him on AA,'s KK's, etc.
I'd definitely like to fix this in my play if its a leak in my play but I don't want to become weak-tight either.

Thanks a lot for all the advice guys

[/ QUOTE ]
2 things for that:
1. even if this 2 guys would hold 32o both your desicion to fold was correct. You play poker to make the right desicions not to win every pot.
2. I didnt saw that you called the first raise. Your only chance of a good flop with KQ without raisers is something like JT3 or better JT9.
But anybody holding a Jackpocket in my example or an acepocket if you get a draw or a straight with Ace high, he has many outs to get a full house, sometimes much more than you, to get a straight.
KQ is no hand for calling raises on 10-handed tables.

[Sinnister]

You shoulda layed it down to the 1st raise

[Dave G.]

Folding an often dominated, offsuit hand against a raise doesn't make you weak-tight. It makes you solid. People who habitually call such raises are the people you want to play against. If I'm raising AK here, I'd love it for someone with KQ to call me. He is so far behind me. If a K hits, I'm in for some money. Sure, in this case, I'm not looking good, but this flop will occur less than 1% of the time. Most of the rest of the time, I'm golden.

Big offsuit hands are good hands to play but they are also situational. Playing them profitably requires you to choose the right time to play them and the right time to dump them.

For example, AJo is consistently one of my biggest winning hands. I don't know why. It's always right up there with the big pairs. However, I never play this hand against a raise, not even from the SB or BB. If I did, I am sure it would be performing significantly worse due to all those times I hit but lose to a bigger hand anyway.

And I'd like to emphasise again that you're paying 0.75 BB, or 1.5 SB, which is double the 3/4 of a bet figure you keep using.

I would consider this a significant leak. When you play this hand against a raise, you're potentially going into the hand when your opponent has a big edge against you. There's no reason to give them that edge - fold and wait for a better time.

[Arm187r]

I appreciate the advice guys. I'll definitely lay it down for one bet from now on unless I'm against a LAG (I can still play this against a LAG if I have position right? or does that not even matter). I just thought that this would've been a different case, that if I was careful postflop I could get away with it, but with so many people saying otherwise I'll avoid the situation from now on.

[UATrewqaz]

I agree with the fold overall.

You do have one reason to call

1. This is going to be a big pot so you have good implied odds (although it is two bets back to you).

But you have several reasons NOT to call, which in my opinion far outweigh this

1. It is highly unlikely you have the best hand, based on the action I would say there is a QQ,KK,AA out, perhaps against an AK/JJ as well.

2. You are in the dangerous position of improving to teh 2nd best hand and losing lots of bets, say the flop comes K62, what do you do? You can't fold TPTK in this huge pot and odds are you're going to go do the showdown with a loser.

[Eeegah]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm glad I folded I would've lost this hand had I called.
BUT I'm still not sure about folding for 3/4 of a bet in a multiway pot.


[/ QUOTE ]

The conventional wisdom (ie Miller's advice) is that if there's a raise behind you, the only offsuit hand you should even consider playing is AKo--which you will still fold if it's three bets to you, otherwise reraise. Anything else is dominated too easily--and with a raised pot and likely betting war postflop you're standing to lose a fair bit.

Some authors suggest playing AQo against a raise as well, but you have to be very strong postflop in order to do so (read: not me).

[aK13]

You rarely ever should be the first to coldcall. It's typically 3-bet or fold (TT, JJ, QQ, KK, AA, AK, AQ are all 3 betting hands). I would probably only play KQo against a raise if I was HU to defend my blind. You will frequently make a 2nd best hand that you will have to payoff.

KQo isn't that strong of a multiway hand, FWIW.

[benkath1]

[ QUOTE ]
Bad laydown preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

no

[SCfuji]

3 bet pf bad? what if we're suited?

[bottomset]

well this is why reads are important

look at how bad BB, UTG+1 and CO are

[TomBrooks]

Probably a good fold. I probably would have called it but I play loose and probably cold call too much.

I would never fold it for one raise, not even if I wasn't in the blinds. I would probably reraise it if I was on the raisers left and could fold some players behind me. (not the case in the blinds.)

Edit: I read the hand wrong. I thought you called a cap cold. I would call the first raise, and then I would call for two more since I was in for two and getting 6:1 on the flop. Like I said, this may not be right, but I would do it. My cold call percentage after my last 14k hands at .5/1 is 1.5% by the way which is very high according to most pundits. Still running over 4BB/100.

[caggin]

[ QUOTE ]
And with only one bet at me I'm not automatically putting him on AA,'s KK's, etc.


[/ QUOTE ]

No, but what are you putting him on? An average player raises AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK, and AQ. Against this range of hands you are totally dominated the vast majority of the time. Even against a pocket pair smaller than QQ (which most people don't raise) you're still behind. Even in the BB I might fold to a raise w/ KQo.