QQ with ace turning

[youdnf]

4-8 annie duke table on ub(with the mini blinds 1-2) Villian is a very aggresive player and has the button.

I get QhQd UTG+1 folds around to the button who reraises, I cap it.

Flop is
2d 3h 5d

I bet out, he calls.

Turn is Ad give me a flush draw

I bet out he reraise me, what should my action be here?
I call

river is a 10s

He bets,what should my action be, is the pot to big to lay this one down?

[shadow29]

Well I guess that the action went:

Fold, Hero raises, folds to Button who 3-bets, blinds fold, Hero caps. Two to the flop for 9.5 SBs.

Flop: 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Hero bets, Villain calls.

Turn (5.75 BBs): A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Hero bets, Villain raises, Hero calls.

River (9.75 BBs): T/images/graemlins/spade.gif

Hero checks, Villain bets, Hero ??


First of all, I would have checked the turn. The A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif is both a good card and a bad card for you. It looks like it hit the villain, but now if you make your redraw flush you'll have the second nut flush. Here is a good check with outs situation, imo.

On the river, given the way you played it, I would fold. Same goes if you check/call turn (and the river is the same). Also, if you hit the flush on the river, I would just bet out. Check/raising a four flush board doesn't work too much, in my experience.

[istewart]

shadow, I believe checking with outs is reserved for being in position, so I don't mind the bet.

[JoshuaD]

Against a very aggressive player I play it the same way you did and call down on the river.

[shadow29]

[ QUOTE ]
shadow, I believe check with outs is reserved for being in position, so I don't mind the bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, but I figured that it was an iteration of the concept. I really hate being raised here, but I'm definetly seeing the river. Thus, I check/call.

I don't like the bet for the above reasons, but also because of the preflop action. With what hands do normal 4-8 (not too fishy, I don't think) 3-bet with pf and then simply call the flop? Pretty much A big. I think that you would have heard from AA-JJ on the flop, but I could be wrong.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
shadow, I believe checking with outs is reserved for being in position, so I don't mind the bet.

[/ QUOTE ]


/images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[shadow29]

[ QUOTE ]
Against a very aggressive player I play it the same way you did and call down on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that we need some more information about the villain to call the river (combinging pf, flop, and turn actions).

You and I and other 2+2ers are "very aggressive" opponents and hero doesn't beat any hands I'd play like villain did here.

Is the villain a LAG or what?

[jstewsmole]

Against a total maniac i would call the river. I think in this situation ur almost always beat. A lat of people will try to isolate u with a number of pocket pairs down to even mediium pairs puting u automatically on big cardsor they have AK, maybe AQ suited. If he had a pocket pair u could beat i think u wouldve heard about it on the flp with a reraise especially with that flop. Now a similiar example is in HEPFAP where sklansky says that when u have QQ and are reraised before the flop and the flop comes with and A or K then it is a check and fold situation. This seems very similiar.

In the end i think a good player lays this down against a typical player. Me personally i dont have the balls to lay it down against anyone. but thats my problem. I find it almost impossible to lay down hands on the river to a single player when i have an overpair or top pair with an awsome kicker.

[jstewsmole]

I find it interesting that i see alot of weak opponents folding on the river for one more bet, even HU, in a big pot and ill think to myself What a Wonderful World. Sorry that was just dumb. But really i think that is a major error many players that are weak do that cost themselves significant money. (in smaller stakes games epecially)

THen u get to the higher limits and it seems like just the opposite is true that alot of people who were in the mindset that u should call the river so u dont lose a good pot now are calling C/Raises on the turn and calling one more bet on the river to see there A with K kicker beat to two pair or something. IMO, the higher limit games seem to be won on excellent reads and trusting ur reads as well. Something i cant seem to do.

I think it seems that all the little things like saving a river bet or what not become way more important in the higher games because the competition is usually tougher.

[chesspain]

I don't see the point in betting the turn. Unless this "very aggressive" player is a LAG who would have three-bet preflop with 44/66/KJs, he is likely drawing to no more than two outs if we are ahead, so giving a free card isn't a concern--whereas getting raised when we are behind yet we can't fold would certainly suck.