Is this a fold?

[Homer]

Party Poker 2/4. Somewhat loose game, not particularly tight or passive.

I'm dealt A /forums/images/icons/spade.gif Q /forums/images/icons/spade.gif on the button. MP and cutoff limp, I raise, blinds and limpers call. Five to the flop, 10 SB's in the pot.

Flop: Q /forums/images/icons/heart.gif 7 /forums/images/icons/club.gif T /forums/images/icons/heart.gif

SB checks, MP bets, cutoff folds, I raise, SB coldcalls, BB folds, MP calls. Three to the turn, 8 BB's in the pot.

Turn: 7 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif

SB checks, MP bets.

Question: What should I do here?

I considered folding, which in retrospect I think I should have done, but instead I called.

SB raised (checkraise), MP called.

Question 2: What should I do here?

At this point I realized that I was almost certainly drawing at 2 outs (or 1 out to a split pot), so I folded.

River: blank

.....results to follow.

-- Homer

[Homer]

MP had Q /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 9 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif for two pair (Q's and 7's)

SB had J /forums/images/icons/club.gif T /forums/images/icons/club.gif for two pair (T's and 7's)

This is not what I expected to see.

-- Homer

[Clarkmeister]

Always remember that your opponents put you on AK first and foremost. This is not only important to realise when you do have AK, but also critical to remember when you don't. .

So he bets into you again on the turn. To me that literally screams "top pair, no stick" and he is trying to prevent a freebie. With AA, KK or AQ here you simply must raise. I can't imagine calling in this spot. This is what position and hand reading are all about. Worrying overmuch about flushes will get you killed against even moderately aggressive opponents.

Once you just call, it becomes real tough to play, doesn't it? That is your board with AQ. Play it as such.

[Homer]

You are right. If I am going to continue with the hand the best play is to raise. Calling is, in retrospect, even worse than folding, in my opinion. I couldn't decide whether to raise or fold, and in my stupor calling probably seemed like a happy medium, so I went ahead and did that.

Is this one of those "raise as the last money in the pot" situations? Or should I bet the river, reading MP for a weaker Q, as you said?

Given my initial call on the turn, followed by SB's checkraise and MP's call, should I now fold?

-- Homer

[slim]

Hi Homer,

I'm going to disagree with CM on this one. You raise PF which screams AK but when you raise the flop with a board of QT7 and 2 hearts, that does not scream AK unless it is maybe AKhearts. And the SB COLDCALLS 2 bets. Turn brings a 7 heart which now makes a flush possible, trips possible (especially if MP was playing 78 hearts). When MP bets into you again on the turn like he did, he's either got a 7, or a flush........I'd call like you did especailly with SB who cold called waiting behind you.I would put SB on flush draw or open end str8 when he called 2 cold with a board like that. I don't like raising when you may have only 2 outs. If SB didn't CR, I would have called MP down hoping he was bluffing or had top 2,(QT) and try to river a Q or an A.

[Jeffage]

Raising the turn is much better than calling when confronted with this "unexpected" bet. Most likely someone picked up a draw or is testing you with just Queens up. A seven or flush would likely checkraise. I'd raise and see what happens. If you get reraised, play good poker and make a decision but your call shows weakness to opponents who now will just think you have overs.

Jeff

[slim]

I think calling and "showing weakness" is not always bad when the board has a pair and a flush. By calling, you are telling him, you don't have a flush, but you may have an overpair or top pair-top kicker or maybe an Ace of heart. You are willing to call him down, which is usually a sign of weakness,or more accurately a sign that you have a good hand but not great. I don't see anything wrong with that. I don't think you should raise just to represent strength when the board is that scary.

[Clarkmeister]

Slim,

I don't know about you, but I suspect the vast majority of 2+2 posters, and a significant number of non posters would raise with AK when bet into on a QT7 flop, especially if they had a heart. The fish simply want to "see it". I got called down by king high last night. Just in case I had QJ I guess, lol.

There are times when good aggressive play requires multiple bets on the turn with a mediocre holding. This is one of them.

I'll give you an example from last night:

I raise in the CO with KTs, button coldcalls, BB calls.
Flop is 25T, BB bets, I raise, button coldcalls, BB calls.
Turn is a 7, putting a flush on the board. BB bets, I raise, button coldcalls, BB calls. River is a 2. BB checks, I bet, both players call. BB had 66 and button had JTo. Thats right, the BB *overcalled* with 66.

The point is that you need to hammer them when they make these moves, otherwise they will keep coming at you since you never make them pay without a set or flush. Do you really want them continually taking shots at you on the turn?

At least online, I see more and more players using the turn as the street to test you on. Since the hands they will test you with are correspondingly weaker, the hands you can be aggressive with are also going to be weaker.

[slim]

Hi CM,

I think the difference in the way we would play the hand Homer posted (and proabably the hand you just posted) has a lot to do with your read on your opponents. Homer did not mention the type of player the MP and SB were (loose, tight, aggressive etc.) so I just assumed they were solid players. As it turned out SB was a little of a maniac and MP might be solid.The way I see that hand, if Homer raises the turn, what possible hand can MP or SB call with, unless they have trips,top 2 , or flush? If I were MP and bet the turn with Q-9 and Homer raised (remembering he also raised PF and on the flop), I would fold my Q9. I would only call with Q-10(top 2),AQ,any 7, AA,KK , flush or A/K heart. So by calling as Homer did, I am representing just a calling hand......I don't careif MP thinks I am weak. I will call him down unless maybe another heart comes on the river.Again, if I thought MP was not a very good player, defintily I would raise as u suggest but if he is solid, I call. Just my opinion.......I am sure most people will side with you though.

[bernie]

good explanation....but...

in this hand, since homer got to see the showndown hands, i think he would play this hand a little differently. so he lost the pot, but gained some info about the players that shold benefit him on future hands...the hand isnt a total loss.

the key words in your original response were the mediocre aggressive players. if they were passive players, even weak tights, then the play is much different....as when they pull a c/r or even bet out, it usually has more meaning...

but i agree it looks like a raise fold position...the problem is if the sb still c/r you....a check/3bet is pretty strong move. but a raise here will usually give you much better info on where your hand stands...

b

[bernie]

HU calling would be considered, for reasons you mentioned ...but remember, there's another player in the hand. why not put pressure on him to fold, thereby making the hand HU. if anyone 3 bets you, you can read them a little easier

b

[Clarkmeister]

"so he lost the pot, but gained some info about the players that shold benefit him on future hands...the hand isnt a total loss"

I think this is a bad way of looking at it. This pot is huge. He could have gained info by folding preflop, too.

"but i agree it looks like a raise fold position"

No, calling is better than folding IMO.

"...the problem is if the sb still c/r you....a check/3bet is pretty strong move. but a raise here will usually give you much better info on where your hand stands"

That's the point. He isn't checkraise-three betting you without the goods. Once you flat call, he puts you on nothing and thinks he can use your presense to leverage the initial turn bettor out of the pot. The call induces this type of play.

Look at this hand. Homer is calling the river anyways. By not raising now he has no clue where he is and is in an impossible spot. By 2 betting now the SB doesn't think he can make a play at the pot, and MP isn't very happy either. Plus on future hands, MP isn't gonna get cute with this "bet with top pair" crap. He'll sit and behave like a good boy. Now his moves on future hands have a lot more meaning because he knows you will crank his butt.

I just can't stress how important it is that people play the turn aggressively. In a response above, one poster says something to the effect of "I don't care if they think I am weak". This is absolutely wrong . You do not want these semi-aggressive clowns seeing you as weak and constantly taking shots at you. And by the time these raised pots get to the turn, they are huge. If you aren't going to crank them without the nut, and keep laying down hands, they are correct to take shots at you. Aggressive play combined with position will put an end to that stuff pronto. You simply can't beat even decent players if you aren't punishing them for making moves on you.

The weak tight ones are easy to read and aren't a problem in these spots. You obviously play differently against them than against more normal players. But don't be one of them. Or at the end of the session after you lose, you'll be asking yourself "how can they win money while playing that crap".

Answer: you gave it to them.

[Clarkmeister]

"if anyone 3 bets you, you can read them a little easier"

Exactly.

[ZManODS]

You should not always think you are up against the nuts.

[Homer]

I don't always think I am up against the nuts. What makes you think that I do?

In this situation, I was up against a player who bet into me on the flop (betting into the preflop raiser) and then bet into me again on the turn when the board paired and the flush got there. Plus, there was a player who coldcalled on the flop who was yet to act on the turn. I think this is a difficult situation for me to be in. In the game I play in, most players are fairly passive and non-tricky. With no prior knowledge of the players, as in this case, I make such an assumption.

I am still not convinced that a fold was not the best play. I don't think raising the turn is as cut and dried as everyone is making it out to be, though I am not yet convinced enough that it wasn't the best play to state that I believe their opinions to be wrong.

-- Homer

[Robk]

Hey Homer,
In a "just sat down" situation in a LL game I could let this one go to the turn bet, if the pot
weren't so big. In the online games I've played in it's just too likely you're up against turkeys.
I would call. A raise opens you up to a 3-bet from the coldcaller if that scare card did hit him,
and I want to see this through against online players I don't know. I don't mind paying someone
off- once.

[Louie Landale]

You cannot fold for the 1st bet unless its Mother Theresa betting. He didn't hit the 7 and could only have hit the flush. Folding for the raise is a lot more reasonable, but you still cannot do it against tricky folk.

After reading the results...

Don't ya just hate it when that happens? But much more important than figuring out what happened is classifying these guys [1] Are they just clever enough to know you may very well lay down your big pair against an "obvious" flush? [2] Do they think their hands got better when they "improved" to 2-pair? That information is very valuable.

Either way, don't be laying down hands against these guys often.

- Louie

[slim]

Homer,

Looks like I am the only one who agrees with the way you played this hand. Everyone keeps saying that calling the turn shows weakness and that you can't let people run over you or take shots at you. The way I see it, you were bet into twice and now there is a flush and a pair on the turn and all you have is top pair. Calling the turn bet is not getting run over, folding is getting run over. You had serious doubts that your top pair was still good, so you called......just because you don't raise does not mean you are being run over......especially with a cold caller still to act. On a board like that and with the checkraise on the turn, you figure to be in last place, let alone 2nd best. So I'll agree to disagree with the others.

[Homer]

I still don't know what to think. It will be interesting to pull up a thread like this in a few months to see if my opinion has drastically changed.

-- Homer

[picabo]

At this point I realized that I was almost certainly drawing at 2 outs (or 1 out to a split pot), so I folded.

Ok. The reason that you thought this was in your experience facing this type of board and aggression, you are drawing nearly dead because at least one of the other players has hit.
Question: Why would you do anything other than what you did with this read?
I believe that alot of the discussion for this thread (although very informative and intelligent) is centered on results oriented thinking. Would the responses be the same if you hadnt posted the results. I honestly dont know as I respect these guys for being very good players and have learned a great deal from reading their posts. If I make a read like you did then unless the pot is laying huge and I mean huge odds to call then I fold as well. Just my opinion.

[rtucker5]

I am with slim here. You have shown aggression pre-flop and on the flop. Now the board pairs and 3 flushes. You have been bet into and then check-raised by a player that cold-called 2 bets on the flop. I would muck this hand and look for a better spot. If you have a line on the players, then it isn't so clear-cut. If the check-raiser is a maniac or is known for making moves, you may have to call him down. I think this discussion would have been a whole lot different if you had said the check-raiser showed a flush and took down the pot.

[Vehn]

I raise every single time in this situation but that's the kind of guy I am /forums/images/icons/wink.gif. As I've said before, a turn stop and go is almost always a guy looking for an excuse to fold after being raised.

I had an amusing hand the other day, I limped in late after a couple limpers with A5s, flop was A T 3, it was checked to me and I bet and only an EP called while saying "I'm thinking of a card". The turn was a 3 and he bet into me. I said "That's it, that's your card? Well I can't call you." and raised of course, he thought for a second and flashed an ace and folded and said "I think you have you me outkicked". I replied, "Is your kicker a ten?" and mucked. He didn't get it...

[Homer]

Heh, gotta love that...

I'll keep in mind what you said about the turn stop and go and what it represents...

-- Homer