Extraordinary Hand

[manku]

This is a home game, quite loose, many players make multiple mistakes. We normally play high limit (25-50, 50-100) usually Omaha8 or variation thereof. However, towards end of the session (5 hours) pot limit is often played. One MAJOR difference between most PL games and this one is that it is NOT table stakes. You can bet and raise whatever is in the pot, regardless of your stack. Remarkably, no one has ever raised over $1000 despite bigger pots.

I'm having a good session (up about $800) and it's the LAST hand of the night. Semi maniac player is dealer. We all (9 players) agree to play PL Big Omaha (5 cards, instead of 4). Also, we all throw in $25 antes to increase pot, so there's $225 in pot. We don't play blinds, BTW.

I am dealt Ac-As-5c-10d-Kd, with suited ace and king in MP.

Checked to dealer, who bets $100. I make him reduce it to $50, as it's a friendly game. He agrees and everyone calls to me. Naturally I call as does everyone else. Like I said, its a loose home game.

Flop: Ad-3c-7c. I'm not really happy. In limit, fine. But in PL, I hate it when the low is driving the action. In fact, earlier on that session, I folded top set when 5-6-7 came on the flop and I had MP. (Would've won with runner-runner 44, but irrelevant). No one needs to tell me how dangerous it is to be playing for 1/2 pot.

I bet 25, hoping my tight image will allow me to see cheap turn. A couple loose callers. Cutoff raises 25, and button reraises 100. Everyone folds to me. I'm virtually 100% positive they both have 2-3. However, I also feel cutoff won't reraise.
With over $400 in pot, does anyone fold here?

One loose player (on fire all session, up 3K, but extremely transparent) calls. So does cutoff.

Turn: 9d. I now have top set, and two nut flush draws. Why can't this be OmahaHi?

I check. Cutoff bets $500, button calls. Does anyone fold here? I didn't. Everyone else has folded.

River: Js. Uggh!!!. Out of 40 cards in the deck, on 10 are really ugly. This is one of them. Checked to cutoff, who bets $800. Button calls.

I deliberate, turn my hand over. Tell the table I'm going to take all night to deliberate. I really don't want to go from winner to loser, but I'd pick up about $2000 if I win (only have about $300 in profit remaining).

I get up, and see the bettor pick up his cards and recheck his hand. Would he have done this with a set? No. He must have rivered the straight.

I fold.

Cutoff turns over nut-nut.(2-4-8-10. Button shows nut-low for 1/4. Neither player had 2 pair or a lower set.

Questions:

1. Does anyone fold preflop, esp. with everyone calling and $225 dead money in pot? I don't think so, but would appreciate comment.

2. On flop, this is my biggest decision. I know the low is out there, I have no chance for it. Do I call knowing that I can exert huge pressure and a big win should I fill my high. Also, I have the current nuts to many redraws.

3. Obviously, in Omaha High I'm raising all in on the turn. Flop too. However, this is Omaha8. Does anyone fold here? It seems to me the 3/4's of the deck gives me the nuts for high, and I can then get a huge payoff.

4. I think the cutoff made a mistake by betting $800. With nut-nut, he should either bet the entire pot ($2000) to extract maximum from button (whom, trust me, will call), or $300 to get me to throw in my $$$. In one hand, I went from a nice winner to loser if I call his big bet. Had he only bet $300, I would have gladly tossed in my moola. What about his big turn bet? Comments?

Despite only winning $300 for the session, I feel like a winner because I made a good read and laydown at the end.

Just wondering how others might have played it. I figure on the turn, I'm putting in $500 to win $3000 if I don't get unlucky.

It was a riveting hand, and a reminder of why NL/PL is so much fun.

Manku

[manku]

Also, didn't the cutoff make a huge mistake by betting so much on the turn? With only a 4 real outs to get the high, it seems like a terrible raise. Also, BTW, neither player had any counterfeit low protection.

And one correction: There was over $800 in the pot after the flop. Not $400.

Manku

[Guy McSucker]

Well, I don't play this game, and I certainly don't play for stakes like those but...

Before the flop, you can't pass. The odds are too good, and you have a very nice hand.

On the flop, you have the nut high. I don't see how you can put this down, even against two nut lows. Presumably they won't go nuts unless they make some kind of high hand too.

On fourth street, your high hand is in such good shape, you can't fold. As you said, there are an enormous number of nut rivers for you, and the nut lows may well pay off. I would likely have lost my head and raised all in here, but waiting a card may well be best: if the lows will pay off regardless of when you put the money in, might as well see the last card first... As it turned out, you got an unlucky river and escaped.

Good read on the river. Well played from start to finish.

Guy.

[ben mo]

You definitely should have raised the maximum pre-flop, and tried to get it heads-up with your premium hand. After the flop you can only hope to fill, and you played it straightforwardly.

b

[punkass]

First off, interesting in making him lessen his pre flop bet in half. It's still less than half the pot....but again, you said it's a friendly game. I don't know the aura of your table, although it seems a lot of money is thrown in the pot....

I don't see why you would ever leave the pot on the flop. You have the top set, so if the board pairs, you have most likely the winner for high. You have the nut flush draw and the back door nut flush draw. I would actually want more people in this pot (assuming all the lows will get quartered or worse, and anyone in for a worse flush draw or two pair drawing will get what's coming to them). I know, you are only going to get half the pot, but maybe not. It's a big mistake to fold this hand at this point, because they can very well easily be counterfeited on the turn or river (note: you will not be able to bet if the counterfeit card comes, unless it flushes you, since you will then be staring at the wheel).

The turn is a different story. If the counterfeit card does come down, you won't bet (unless you know for certain everyone got counterfeited). I don't know the numbers, but you actually may have the +EV to bet this out with all the cards that help you. I wouldn't, because I think that even though it might be +EV, I wouldn't like the higher variance it would bring.

So back to the turn, it's a 9. Nothing changes except for a straight draw now. It was bound to happen. Taking out your outs for the full house and flush, the 9 isn't a bad card. It actually gives you another nut flush draw. You have all pairs (disregarding quads), and all flush draws. Much like an earlier poster, I too may have lost my head and gone all in on this hand, thinking that, most likely, I will be getting half this pot against splitting lows, or better yet, they might get quartered and take this monster of a pot home.

Let's face it, the river sucks. Your lay down is amazing to me (I need to work on laying down losers, I admit). Kudos on that. But pot limit is about getting your stack in the middle with everyone elses when you have the best of it. You had the best of it before the river.

But again, this is a house game. The purpose of the game might not be to cripple a friend into poverty and debt. That is up to you to decide.

I welcome any comments or criticisms. I don't post often, but I wanted to here. I apologize for the length of the post.