"Official" Live at the Bike thread (6/17)

[Kevmath]

Tonight's show looks to be either the $500 or $1000 min/no max buyin game, unless they decide to stick a 200 NL game in there if the regulars aren't around. Hopefully one of the regular Bike commentators will appear with Bart, or they may have to drag some poor guy in off the street to do the deed.

Last night's show pretty much sucked until the shootout got 3 handed, and the Bike should put a disclaimer on it, showing players how not to play with a big stack 3 handed. When it got to headsup, the poor big stack play continued, as the short stack refused to make a deal and pounded the poor guy into submission. After he lost, he showed true class by refusing to shake the winner's hand, while the winner refused to talk to Bart, what a way to end the show!

Kevin...

[Russ McGinley]

They really shouldn't be sticking these shootouts on the show unless they are high stakes or filled with celebrities/hot chicks. This show is supposed to be all about the "first and only broadcast of live action, cash game poker", they should stick to that, as these shootouts are brutal to watch.

[Kashie]

After he lost, he showed true class by refusing to shake the winner's hand, while the winner refused to talk to Bart, what a way to end the show!

Kevin...

[/ QUOTE ]

Well Bart doesn't get enough credit for what he brings to the show!
Well Done Bart!!!!

[Kevmath]

[ QUOTE ]
They really shouldn't be sticking these shootouts on the show unless they are high stakes. This show is supposed to be all about the "first and only broadcast of live action, cash game poker", they should stick to that.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

Kevin...

[Kevmath]

They've been hyping that the Legends of Poker will have lots of big names on the show and commentating. I've got the feeling they'll underperform on that front.

Kevin...

[Ratman138]

what did bart just say about a "best of" reel? i was on the phone and just caught the end.

[Kevmath]

If you attempt to watch the show before it starts, they run a 15 minute "best of" with highlights of L@TB action. It runs on a loop throughout the day.

Kevin...

[Sponger15SB]

Kevmath - would you mind putting a link to the live at the bike site on each of these posts?

I think more people would watch it if they just had to click rather than searching around.

Thanks.

[Kevmath]

For those that want to use Windows Media Player:
http://216.53.204.10/bike/bike_300.asx

For those that want to watch off their browser:
www.thebike.com (http://www.thebike.com) and click on "Live at the Bike"

Kevin...

[Kevmath]

FWIW, is the Jesse Alto in seat 8 an:

A. An alias
B. Related to 1976 WSOP ME runner up Jesse Alto
C. Actually that Jesse Alto
D. Someone else whose name is Jesse Alto

Kevin...

[Ole16]

When he´s saying Diablo in seat 9 - is that as in Diablo off 2+2 ??

[Sponger15SB]

[ QUOTE ]
When he´s saying Diablo in seat 9 - is that as in Diablo off 2+2 ??

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

Also, $16,000 in blackjack! oowwwww

[tacklebox]

That's him...was he what you expected?

[Kevmath]

Blackjack + Any Harrah's casino = Very bad idea

Kevin...

[Ole16]

Just curious -
Like his posts and could have been interesting to see him play.

[tacklebox]

Ohhhhh, did you mean-El Diablo, no not him.

Seat 9 is THE Devil, sorry about the misunderstanding.
/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[jclin]

Seat 6 = Take my money, please! 28o call preflop? Awesome.

[Jive Dadson]

Hahaha. Are Gore's sunglasses a new accessory? Does he think that's going to keep people from reading his bluffs like the Weekly World News?

[Ole16]

Ya El Diablo -

No worries though /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Kevmath]

Since I don't think you can fast/forward thru the archive (I think) Gor's not going to bother watching 1:05 of "action" to see what she had.

Kevin...

[Ole16]

You can fast forward in the archives.

[Jive Dadson]

Can someone explain to me what the heck the logic is in the "stop bet" Bart keeps talking about?

[Kashie]

Bart and Denny,

Maybe Kevmath deserves a "Live@theBike" Archive free pass,
for all he does in promoting the show!

Then he would know that you can fast forward them.

[Jive Dadson]

Earlier Bart said Gore should have bet into Thu on the hand where she bluffed him off the better hand. I presume that would be a "stop bet." He would have just lost more money if he did that. Thu would not have called on the previous round unless she had already decided to bluff after the next card hit. No way a bet by him would have slowed her down unless he risked a big amount.

[tacklebox]

Let's say there's $1000 in the pot,on the turn you have a flush draw, and you are first to act. By betting a smaller amount, like $100-200, you are trying to see the river for a good price. Because if you check and your opponent makes a large pot sized bet you can't ( shouldn't) call.

Stop bets are best to make against calling stations (seat9) where a raise isn't expected. You also have bluffing ability if you miss your draw, because of showing strength all the way. Then again, bluffing a calling station is -EV. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Jive Dadson]

[ QUOTE ]
Let's say there's $1000 in the pot,on the turn you have a flush draw, and you are first to act. By betting a smaller amount, like $100-200, you are trying to see the river for a good price. Because if you check and your opponent makes a large pot sized bet you can't ( shouldn't) call.

Stop bets are best to make against calling stations (seat9) where a raise isn't expected. You also have bluffing ability if you miss your draw, because of showing strength all the way. Then again, bluffing a calling station is -EV. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

So it's a play that only works against a particular kind of weak player. That's what I thought.

[tacklebox]

If the turn is any card but an A, Gor bets. He put her on A10 or AA only by his reaction. It's so easy when you see there hands, but 10 5 on that board against that player makes you feel like [censored].

[Jive Dadson]

So you have a flush draw and there's $1000 in the pot. You bet $200. You have put yourself in a position where your equity in the pot is a little larger than the $200 you invested -- IF your opponent doesn't raise. That's a big if. A good player is not going to be too bothered by that lame, er, I mean, "stop" bet. A good player is going confiscate that $200 along with the rest of the pot far more often than you would like.

[Jive Dadson]

If you make "stop bets" or post oak bluffs, you are obligated to make small bets some with very good hands too. Otherwise, every one of your stop bets or post oak bluffs is going to be confiscated by observant opponents.

[Jive Dadson]

[ QUOTE ]
So you have a flush draw and there's $1000 in the pot. You bet $200. You have put yourself in a position where your equity in the pot is a little larger than the $200 you invested -- IF your opponent doesn't raise. That's a big if. A good player is not going to be too bothered by that lame, er, I mean, "stop" bet. A good player is going confiscate that $200 along with the rest of the pot far more often than you would like.

[/ QUOTE ]

Plus, it's not 100% you weren't going to be allowed to draw for free.

Sorry, I just can't buy it.

[brassnuts]

I love it when people think their 3-pair with 22 is a winner.

[Russ McGinley]

The way I view a stop bet is if I have a hand which I think is good (usually on the river) but I don't want my opponent to make a huge bet that I cannot call if I check to him. I bet an amount I am willing to call.

[Jive Dadson]

[ QUOTE ]
The way I view a stop bet is if I have a hand which I think is good (usually on the river) but I don't want my opponent to make a huge bet that I cannot call if I check to him. I bet an amount I am willing to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

And when he makes that huge bet anyway, what do you do?

[Russ McGinley]

If he comes over the top, I fold. As was mentioned this play works best against non-aggressives who will only play back with the nuts or close to it.

[Jive Dadson]

I once worked out a near-optimal strategy for no limit draw, based on the work of Nesmith Ankeny. I then used that system daily for four years in a live game, and won as much as I made at my day job as an engineer in Silicon Valley. Even for draw poker, it was a daunting task to work out that strategy. Hold'em is much more complicated. When you make bets that vary in size depending on what your hand is, you create a couple of problems that are very hard to analyze. Since the size of your bet sends a code to your opponent about the nature of your hand, you have to jam the code somehow, and you have to be sure that the jamming doesn't cost more than you gain from the variation in bet size. If you introduce the "stop bet" (which I think is dubious on the face of it), you are obliged to introduce the "stop-bet-and-re-raise" (analogous to check-and-raise) to jam the code. It's oh-so tricky.

If the claim is only that certain weak opponents will fall for it, fine. If it's touted as a game-theoretic optimal strategy, I say, "Foo."

[Jive Dadson]

[ QUOTE ]
If he comes over the top, I fold. As was mentioned this play works best against non-aggressives who will only play back with the nuts or close to it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Russ, you are a gentleman and a scholar.

It still seems dubious to me. That hypothetical person will have to be one who will value bet or bluff frequently enough for you to be concerned about it. But you will also give up the chance to catch his bluffs, assuming he will fold or make a big raise with a nothing hand.

[Kashie]

It seems a little dead without some Commentary.

[mason55]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If he comes over the top, I fold. As was mentioned this play works best against non-aggressives who will only play back with the nuts or close to it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Russ, you are a gentleman and a scholar.

It still seems dubious to me. That hypothetical person will have to be one who will value bet or bluff frequently enough for you to be concerned about it. But you will also give up the chance to catch his bluffs, assuming he will fold or make a big raise with a nothing hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

That's why you have to read your opponents hand and decide what to do. If you think he's on a busted flush draw on the river then you can check and try to snap off a bluff. If you think he either has a great hand or a decent hand and you don't want to call a big bet then you can make a blocking bet. You can also make the same sized bets when you're trying to induce a raise against an aggressive opponent. The idea is you do it in both situations with the correct frequency and no one will be able to correctly bluff you.

Blocking bets are a very common and important concept in NL holdem.

[arvin]

Hey Bart, why would you want to overbet a pot?

[Jive Dadson]

It will take a lot to convince me that a weak bet with a weak hand can be a strong play.

[Jive Dadson]

Someone in this game needs to get with the program. http://www.gamblersanonymous.org/

[Kevmath]

3 hours into a Friday game, and finally there's a hand where someone runs it multiple times, and Mo goes 3-3.

Kevin...

[Ole16]

@ Commentators

Maybe you should mention the main reason NOWADAYS is, when you run it 3 times, you do it to lower variance.

[Ole16]

Hahaha -
And we have the winner of "dumbest move of the day".
Amazingly there are still players who can crack me up watching this.

All in with a weak ace and a gutshot || nice /images/graemlins/tongue.gif /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Kevmath]

Donkey alert on seat 7. Nice way to lose a good part of your stack with a weak ace and a gutshot.

Kevin...

[Russ McGinley]

http://www.astro.washington.edu/reed/info/donkey.jpg

[mason55]

[ QUOTE ]
It will take a lot to convince me that a weak bet with a weak hand can be a strong play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ask this question in the mid/high NL forum. If you make the same bet with a good hand with optimal frequency your opponent cannot raise you out of the pot without a good holding. Simple game theory stuff man.

[Jive Dadson]

[ QUOTE ]

Simple game theory stuff man.

[/ QUOTE ]

Game theory for Hold'em is NOT simple, man.