99, I am your vaaader

[oreogod]

Villian is 21/8/2.3.

I had the notion I might be ahead here on the flop and turn and didnt act on it. Does anybody raise the flop, pop the turn?

The line I was going to take but didnt: raise flop, lead turn, check river as the river sucks.



Absolute Poker 5/10 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.40 SB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.70 BB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (6.70 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, CO checks.


Edit: Reason I post is 77-99 are hands I probably dont play optimally.

[sweetjazz]

Fold the flop. You might be ahead, but's it going to be too expensive to find out if this is one of those rare times you are ahead.

[MHarris]

I think you need to take the initiative at some point, preferably on the flop. I'd check-raise the flop, and lead the turn and river.

[27offsooot]

You're ahead of one hand and behind a lot of hands. Fold the flop. Just a J and a more aggro opp, i would c/r the flop.

[oreogod]

Leading the river would be baaaad.

[MHarris]

Leading the river might well fold AK or TT, which is not baaaad.

[oreogod]

I dont see AK folding here. Unless he bets the river and I pull a bluff checkraise and he folds to that. I didnt put him on TT. Its slightly possible, given what he did raise with, but he seemed to make a lot of crying calls on the river since I had been playing with him.

this is over 75 hands. I have played in games where ppl will lay AK down to this board...but most of the time they end up calling. I wish I could check my PT database to see the frequency of this.

[Guruman]

I'd also fold the flop here. consider the range of hands your opponent could 3-bet pre-flop with:

AK, AQ, AJ, AT, KQ, maybe KJ, and PPs down to TT or 99. If he's tricky, he could also do this with middle suited connectors. Villain is either waaaaay ahead or has outs to get there quick. Even your back door flush draw doesn't look good. AND you're out of position.

tip your cap, and think "next hand please"

[oreogod]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd also fold the flop here. consider the range of hands your opponent could 3-bet pre-flop with:

AK, AQ, AJ, AT, KQ, maybe KJ, and PPs down to TT or 99. If he's tricky, he could also do this with middle suited connectors. Villain is either waaaaay ahead or has outs to get there quick. Even your back door flush draw doesn't look good. AND you're out of position.

tip your cap, and think "next hand please"

[/ QUOTE ]

All very true. Weird, I would usually fold here. But its one of those occasions where u know you're ahead.

I was. He had ATs (clubs). So he had outs, a decent number of them.

[crunchy1]

If you really thought you were ahead then I think you need to find a c/r on the flop or turn.

[oreogod]

I agree. Its move that I wanted to do during the hand, but didnt. Thats why I posted, to see if its a bad move in general or not.

I figured if he did have AK he had more than a good number of outs against me so I didnt know if calling down, folding or raising would be the best play.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd also fold the flop here. consider the range of hands your opponent could 3-bet pre-flop with:

AK, AQ, AJ, AT, KQ, maybe KJ, and PPs down to TT or 99. If he's tricky, he could also do this with middle suited connectors. Villain is either waaaaay ahead or has outs to get there quick. Even your back door flush draw doesn't look good. AND you're out of position.

tip your cap, and think "next hand please"

[/ QUOTE ]

All very true. Weird, I would usually fold here. But its one of those occasions where u know you're ahead.

I was. He had ATs (clubs). So he had outs, a decent number of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he's 3-betting you with hands all the way down to ATs, then you're in really bad shape on this flop versus his range, I think.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
If you really thought you were ahead then I think you need to find a c/r on the flop or turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

If Hero is going to checkraise, I think doing so on the turn is better. Hero isn't much of a favorite on the flop versus any legitimate preflop 3-bet (except 77-88, which I don't think we really need to push Villain off of).

Hero does at least become a bigger favorite versus AK (or the actual AT) on the turn (though in this instance, the paired board does add to Villain's outs).

I'm not really fond of the checkraise idea, though, as Hero will be behind so often, and I'm really not expecting AK to fold.

I suppose a checkraise will probably drive out TT, but usually Villain will have something else.

Given the reverse implied odds on the flop, I think I like just check-folding the flop best. And I think just calling down (so long as the board doesn't get worse) is my second choice.

[Malachii]

Just curious, did you consider checkraising the turn when the board paired?

[youdnf]

you have two options here, check and fold to a bet, or check raise and see what he does. If he re-raises you fold, if he calls, you might have the best hand so bet out on the turn to see what he does, if he reraises you your beat, and same for the river. Which one of these to do dependes on your oppenet.

[oreogod]

[ QUOTE ]
Just curious, did you consider checkraising the turn when the board paired?

[/ QUOTE ]

While on the flop, there were two lines I was thinking about (neither of which I took, and I wonder if I did, maybe I could have won. He was going to the river regardless)

1.Check raise the flop, lead the turn
2.Call and check raise the turn.

I was more for line 1, as I think u lose more in line 2 if u are actually behind. But I think mathematically your outlook is better on the turn than on the flop.

I think line 1 u lose the least, but line 2 maybe the best. Folding the flop is also probably a strong option, as if u are not ahead, u he has a decent amount of outs to put u behind.

Line 1 is probably how the action would have gone if I could re-do the hand.

[chief444]

Check/fold...next hand. I think check/raising the flop and leading the turn will cost you a LOT of money in the long run in this situation. You're a toss up against AK. TT you'll get to fold VERY occasionally (when it's out there AND when it folds is rare). Any other preflop 3-betting hands you're behind and aren't likely to get to lay down anywhere.

[jstewsmole]

I think this is a check/fold situation. Like Chief says in the long run i think anything other than that is negative EV. Also the fact that it seems this guys reraising standards are fairly loose make it even more probable that ur beat with a Q and J on the board.

Though i do think that line one in the prevoius post is the next best play.

Also if u have a read that he may try to isolate with a wide range of hands then maybe making it 4 bets before the flop might be a good play as he will probably put u on KK or AA bet out on the flop and if he raises the gig is up. Or try line one.C/R the flop and lead the turn i think it was.

Just was wondering how capping preflop changes things post flop in this hand.

[dealer_toe]

c/r the flop, if you get some resistance, its an easy turn fold, if he slows down, put on the pressure (lead the turn and river)