I'm going to miss big pot poker -- T8s MP, 7-handed and 3 bets preflop [Archive]

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Aaron W.

06-17-2005, 02:24 PM

I'm within a week or two of clearing my 10k at $1/2. I could leave now for $1/2 5-max (Paradise), but I value discipline and patience, and have absolutely no reason to rush off with a few hundred hands to go. Anyway, the cast of characters for this hand:

BB is a sLAG-AG (24/12 after 66 hands). I don't have a solid bead on him. He's not afraid to be aggressive (raised 99 UTG, got HU with BB, and bet all the way on a KQ7-3-6 board, losing to Q4s), but seems to slow down when faced with aggression, folding often.

Button is new to the table, probably only an orbit or two by this time. He's a little loose preflop, and I haven't seen anything special postflop from him.

UTG is also new to the table, but is clearly quite loose preflop and seems to passively chase to the river. He's called (and lost) a couple times there, and he has folded to a river bet, too. He's also a bit timid. He called a button raise from SB (6-handed flop), the flop came AK3 and got checked through, he check-called an 8 on the turn, and checked again on the 4 on the river, and took the pot.

I thought about making this a play-along, but I don't have the time to sit here and draw it out over the course of the day. So here's everything all at once. There are lots of places for argument, so have at it.

Paradise Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, Hero calls, 1 fold, Button raises, SB calls, BB 3-bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Flop: (21 SB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (7 players)
SB checks, BB bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP2 folds, Hero calls, Button folds, SB calls.

Turn: (12.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets, UTG calls, Hero raises, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

River: (18.50 BB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, BB folds, UTG folds.

Final Pot: 19.50 BB

Entity

06-17-2005, 02:26 PM

I raise this preflop a lot, but when I don't, I play postflop exactly the same. Perfect.

irishpint

06-17-2005, 02:34 PM

i dunno about the turn raise. BB 3bet pf and bet the flop, so he could have an overpair, plus there are 2 flush draws now. i feel like we're behind/will be behind/might get 3bet here enough that raising the turn isn't work it.

istewart

06-17-2005, 02:35 PM

Do you think AK/AQ calls enough on the river? (and bets both flop/turn UI?)

Entity

06-17-2005, 02:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Do you think AK/AQ calls enough on the river? (and bets both flop/turn UI?)

[/ QUOTE ]

I think AK and AQ, and especially KQ (especially with clubs or spades), bet flop and turn. They won't call the river very often after being raised on the turn, but UTG will call with a lot of hands we're ahead of, and we'll occasionally be able to fold a hand like ATs from someone in the BB (note: BB's stats are an awful lot like mine and I'm not overcalling this river with ATs).

A side note: take a note on Button. Anyone raising preflop, calling the 3-bet, then folding this flop getting 24:1 almost closing the action needs to be watched.

istewart

06-17-2005, 02:45 PM

Ah, I thought I was missing a little something.

On the river though, BB isn't overcalling. Are you calling acting first after the bet (i.e. do you think he will?) The possibility of getting him to fold a better hand, which I'm not sure about, seems like one of the primary reasons for this bet. (With the JT773 board, we now tie any ten, lose to any jack or seven.)

Entity

06-17-2005, 03:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ah, I thought I was missing a little something.

On the river though, BB isn't overcalling. Are you calling acting first after the bet (i.e. do you think he will?) The possibility of getting him to fold a better hand, which I'm not sure about, seems like one of the primary reasons for this bet. (With the JT773 board, we now tie any ten, lose to any jack or seven.)

[/ QUOTE ]

The primary reason for betting this river is that you have a better hand than UTG, and UTG will call with worse hands. A very distant secondary reason is that BB can't call with a hand like ATs, which he doesn't likely have anyway.

Rob

DavidC

06-17-2005, 03:20 PM

Probably the most questionable (but still probably good) hand I've seen in quite some time.

I have a long ways to go, I guess.

Entity, your idea of raising this scares the living snot out of me. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Nice post. I'll review this again in due time. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

VBM

06-17-2005, 03:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Entity, your idea of raising this scares the living snot out of me. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

2 things:
1. Entity plays well post-flop and has a good sense when to get out and when it's profitable to continue.

2. Raising this will fold many better hands; e.g. if i were acting behind him; e.g. i'd call (or raise with) QTs, KTs, QJ, ATo but not cold-call them.

istewart

06-17-2005, 04:13 PM

So this bet is not really about BB's hand at all, since I think it's pretty clear we are ahead of his range most of the time, and instead focused on getting value out of UTG? But with what range? I think he'll call with a 3, and all pocket pairs below tens, but does he have these often enough is my question.

Edited to add him calling with ace-high sometimes, but I don't think the read was specific enough to make this a certainty.

Entity

06-17-2005, 04:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Probably the most questionable (but still probably good) hand I've seen in quite some time.

I have a long ways to go, I guess.

Entity, your idea of raising this scares the living snot out of me. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Nice post. I'll review this again in due time. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

T9s is an easy raise for me here because I've got a multiway hand and I love position. T8s is an easy raise for me in the CO because of the likelihood of buying button (when I've been a good boy, I've got a tight player on my left and I exploit the hell out of this).

Rob

Aaron W.

06-17-2005, 04:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Paradise Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, Hero calls, 1 fold, Button raises, SB calls, BB 3-bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Flop: (21 SB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (7 players)
SB checks, BB bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP2 folds, Hero calls, Button folds, SB calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

What if...

---

Turn: (12.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets, UTG calls, Hero...

---

Turn: (12.50 BB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets, UTG calls, Hero...

---

Turn: (12.50 BB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero...

---

Turn: (12.50 BB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets, UTG calls, Hero...

---

Turn: (12.50 BB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero...

---

Turn: (12.50 BB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets, UTG raises, Hero...

---

Turn: (12.50 BB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets, UTG raises, Hero...

AngelicPenguin

06-17-2005, 05:23 PM

Can you explain the turn raise? What hands are we putting BB on. If more of the field had stayed in to see the turn would we still be raising here?

deception5

06-17-2005, 06:57 PM

wow, those are some tough/great questions. I guess I'd:

1.) fold
2.) call, looking for 2-pair/trips
3.) check looking for 2-pair/trips
4.) call, looking for 2-pair/trips/cheap showdown
5.) check, looking for 2-pair/trips/cheap showdown
6.) call
7.) fold

Augster

06-17-2005, 08:29 PM

So, if the BB comes back and 3-bets on the turn, are you folding, calling or capping?

I liked the turn raise, and the two calls shows a bit of inferiority on their part. I guess I'm lost if it comes back as a 3-bet. Call maybe? Then Check through or fold to a bet on the river? Or call the river?

Thanks for any help. Situations like this are my WORST leak I believe.

hicherbie

06-17-2005, 09:09 PM

also, what do you do to a bet out on the river?

Aaron W.

06-17-2005, 09:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So, if the BB comes back and 3-bets on the turn, are you folding, calling or capping?

I liked the turn raise, and the two calls shows a bit of inferiority on their part. I guess I'm lost if it comes back as a 3-bet. Call maybe? Then Check through or fold to a bet on the river? Or call the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

A 3-bet makes me very very sad, but I've got 4 outs and I'm getting over 18:1 to hope for that miracle. Call the 3-bet, and I probably can't quite get myself to fold the river and pay off his overpair.

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for any help. Situations like this are my WORST leak I believe.

[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt that. You must be in some wild wild games if this is happening often enough to be your worst leak. If the turn had been a call, I still win a lot of money, but not as much money as I would if I had raised.

Read Ed's post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=smallholdem&Number=862 129&Forum=All_Forums&Words="biggest%20Leak"&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=862129&Search=true&whe re=bodysub&Name=43&daterange=1&newerval=3&newertyp e=y&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#Post862129) about leaks.

Aaron W.

06-17-2005, 09:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
also, what do you do to a bet out on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm definitely calling is BB bets it. If UTG bets... I think I call out of sheer confusion (given what I've seen from him, I'm almost certainly beat, but he's still quite unknown and the pot is very big - I'm not folding this decent hand on the river for a single bet).

Aaron W.

06-18-2005, 06:31 PM

Too bad not many players took up the extra credit problems.

[ QUOTE ]
Turn: (12.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets, UTG calls, Hero...

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm actually still inclined to raise this. I don't think I really need to be scared of the flush just yet. If it's 3-bet somewhere, I'm done.

[ QUOTE ]
Turn: (12.50 BB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets, UTG calls, Hero...

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm calling because I think I've got about 4 outs (discount the flush cards a little bit) and I'm getting 14.5:1 to chase. Fold the river UI.

[ QUOTE ]
Turn: (12.50 BB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero...

[/ QUOTE ]

I bet this and hope that nobody raises. If I'm raised, I've got to call (pot odds again).

[ QUOTE ]
Turn: (12.50 BB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets, UTG calls, Hero...

[/ QUOTE ]

This is still a call for the same reasons as above.

[ QUOTE ]
Turn: (12.50 BB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero...

[/ QUOTE ]

This is still a bet for the same reasons as above.

[ QUOTE ]
Turn: (12.50 BB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets, UTG raises, Hero...

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm unhappy with this, and I still don't know what I would do. In the heat of battle, I'll probably call it. I might be able to river a chop if he has a ten and the pot is pretty big. I just hope it's not getting capped on me.

[ QUOTE ]
Turn: (12.50 BB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets, UTG raises, Hero...

[/ QUOTE ]

Same as above. Except now I might river a win instead of a chop.