A flop re-raise, how's my play?

[lil']

Online 3-6, loose passive table. Two limpers to me in 2 from the button. I have A /forums/images/icons/heart.gif J /forums/images/icons/club.gif . If I'm gonna play, i gotta raise, right? People were limping with garbage. So I did. SB calls it for $5, 4 handed to the flop:

4 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 4 /forums/images/icons/club.gif 5 /forums/images/icons/club.gif

Everyone checks to me. I bet with the intention of checking the turn if no A or J comes. SB raises, other 2 players fold. I did not think that SB would raise and give away that she had trips so soon, as she seemed to be a decent player. I decided if she was drawing I would make it expensive for her, so I re-rasied. She called.

What do people think of the re-raise?

[Homer]

I'm guessing that SB has an overpair (not a 4, 5 or draw), given the coldcall preflop and the checkraise on the flop. SB could also have coldcalled with Axs, but he most likely would have bet right out on the flop with this hand after flopping a four-flush. Checkraising with such a hand doesn't make sense, because he would be taking the chance of killing his action by knocking out the other players and leaving it heads-up with you.

SB knows that your flop bet was automatic, so he doesn't necessarily put you on a big pocket pair when you bet the flop. You could have easily been raising preflop with overcards, in which case the flop completely missed you. SB knows this is highly likely, so raised the flop to get it heads-up with you. It seems that there are a few courses of action you could take here. I have listed a few below, along with the times at which I would consider using each tactic.

1) Call the flop check-raise with the intention of either raising or calling the turn if a J or A hits and folding otherwise.

I like this option if my opponent will continue to play his hand aggressively even if I three-bet the flop (he won't consider the possibility of me having an overpair and will either four-bet the flop or call and lead out on the turn).

2) Three-bet the flop with the intention of taking a free card on the turn if you miss and betting if you catch a J or A.

I like this option if my opponent will slow down and be willing to check to me on the turn, BUT will still be willing to call me down regardless of the turn card.

3) Three-bet the flop with the intention of betting if a J, A, or high card/flush card (scare cards for SB) comes on the turn, and taking the free card otherwise

I like this option if my opponent is a weak player who will check to me on the turn and fold to a bet when the turn card is a scare card.

4) Call the flop check-raise with the intention of raising SB's turn bet no matter what card comes

I like this option if I am up against a "thinking" player who will consider all my actions to this point (raise preflop, call of flop checkraise with position, raise of turn bet) and be willing to fold upon concluding that I have a higher pocket pair.

....just some thoughts. I think there are definitely many ways to play in this situation. I have tons of trouble with overcard play, so I'd definitely like to hear the thoughts of others as well.

-- Homer

[Homer]

A few more thoughts after reading your post again...

I just want to emphasize that there is no reason for you to think that SB has a 4 in her hand for trips. She cold-called your preflop raise and seems to be a decent player. What hands would a decent player cold-call with in this situation that contain a 4? Maybe pocket 4's and A4s, but that's about it. Pocket 4's is not likely here because she wouldn't checkraise the flop with quads. A4s is slightly more likely, but still it is fairly likely that her hand does not contain a 4.

Another thing is that you don't have to automatically raise every hand that you are going to play. It's alright to limp at times, despite the message that often seems to be conveyed on these boards. After two limpers, I often limp here with AJo in the game I play in (which is loose-passive).

-- Homer

[sam h]

homer did a nice job of laying out the various options and scenarios. my usual move here is to three bet since most online players in these low limits will slow down with a medium pair.

although homer makes a good case of why it wouldnt make sense for somebody to checkraise with a draw here and kill their action, i find that low limit online players do exactly that pretty frequently (maybe in love with the fanciness of the checkraise?), which is another reason three betting is often the best course of action in my opinion.

[Homer]

Good point. A lot of players will checkraise with a flush draw here, thinking that it is the right play because it is "fancy", but not really grasping why it is or is not the correct play.

That's why it's good to know the betting patterns of your opponents...

-- Homer

[lil']

Thanks for your well-written response.
I figured that raising with A-J would be best, as it is a sucky multiway hand, and I figured it was better than what the 2 limpers had. I considered limping for a bit, though.

I was going to wait to post a response, but you put so much effort into your reply that I figured I will let you know what happened now.

The turn came 6 /forums/images/icons/club.gif , meaning if she was on a draw, she hit it. If not, then she had me beat with a pocket pair. When the river came up blank and she still checked, I realized my mistake in logic by thinking she had a draw.

Your analysis was spot on. She had a pocket pair. It was Q-Q, which was a bit higher a pair than I expected to see. In her spot, I might havbe re-raised the pot pre-flop, knocking out the two limpers, but that's just me.

[Homer]

I'm surprised to hear she had such a high pocket pair as well. I would have definitely raised with that hand preflop. Also, I'm a little surprised that she checked the turn AND river (that scare card definitely scared her, combined with the possibility of you having AA or KK).

I'm assuming that you checked it through on the turn? As I said in my initial post, I think betting here is player dependent. If your opponent is weak-tight, and will lay down a middling pocket pair (which turned out to be a tad higher this time around /forums/images/icons/smile.gif ), I would definitely bet, even if I suspected that my opponent may have been on a flush draw that just got there. Given that you raised pre-flop, three-bet on the flop, and a major scare card came on the turn, a bet gives you a great chance of taking down the pot right there. Someone with a middle pair will be hard pressed to call. They will probably put you on at least a bigger pocket pair, and the presence of the flush should sway them even more towards folding. If they do happen to have the flush, you will get raised and can safely lay down your hand. Of course, if you are against a player who has a vice grip on their hand, then I think it is prudent to check it through on the turn, knowing that you are behind and that your opponent is unwilling to fold.

Your opponent's play seems rather weak-tight, so I think if you are in a similar situation against this opponent in the future, it would be best if you bet the turn.

-- Homer

[Clarkmeister]

When someone checkraises the field like that, effectively shutting them out, your primary read should be "pair". In this case, either a pocket pair or a hand with a 5 in it.

[Tyler Durden]

I'm always perplexed when I read that someone was playing in a 3-6 online game that was loose and passive.

I used to play 3-6 on paradise and it was always tight and aggressive.

I'm guessing this wasn't on paradise.

[lil']

Party Poker. FYI.

[tewall]

I think whether the re-raise is good or not depends on your reasons for making it. I think it's likely you're behind, so raising for value doesn't make sense. However, if for one extra small bet you can make your opponent misplay the hand, it may well be worth it. She's not likely to put you on AJo.

[Rube]

I'd almost always raise preflop with AJo on the button against two limpers.

When SB checkraises the flop, I'd rule out a draw and put her on a medium pocket pair or a hand with a five. Since you're getting 12-1 with six probable outs, I'd be playing on, which makes 3-betting the flop very attractive

I'd plan on reraising, checking behind on the turn and calling if bet into on the river. I wouldn't call a turn bet.

[Ed Miller]

I did not think that SB would raise and give away that she had trips so soon, as she seemed to be a decent player.

So a "decent" player would always slowplay trips to the turn???

[bernie]

"I did not think that SB would raise and give away that she had trips so soon, as she seemed to be a decent player."

this is a great reason for her to raise...you wont put her on it. this is one reason i bet out or c/r with this type of hand on this type of board...works great, especially against thinking players.

shes protecting something isnt she? shes not on a draw. id be suprised if she was...

what hand do you put her on? overcards? a mid pair? maybe. would you raise with 55 preflop here? or 44? she knows the flop probably didnt hit you. so she could be testing for an over pair to hers...

not sure if id 3 bet here, but i may see the turn and river if i think she only has an overpair to the board and an A or J will be good...

b

[bernie]

if id have read this response earlier, i wouldnt have responded....very nice and thought out response...

kicked ass...

b

[tewall]

You bring up a good point. Many players routinely slow play big hands, waiting to the turn to make their move, so by betting the flop aggresively with a good hand you not only get more money in the pot but are playing your hand deceptively.